Nasir El Rufai, former
minister of FCT needs little introduction.From an insider in the
Olusegun Obasanjo presidency, he ended up in exile during the Umaru
YarAdua regime.Many Nigerians did not expect that twist of events. We
have been following his story , from afar ,with keen interest and after
several efforts, we finally sat down with him for a no- holds-barred
interview conducted by Danlami Nmodu, publisher/editor- in- chief ,Newsdiaryonline.com in
Abuja.He speaks on Umaru YarAdua era,President Goodluck Jonathan’s
regime Jonathan, General Muhammadu Buhari, Boko Haram insurgency and
other issues.Teaser:“You know I have always felt,I have always asked
myself why would Boko Haram go and plant a bomb in a church?Why?Boko
Haram considers non-practising muslims a bigger enemy than Christians.I
don’t think their problem has ever been with Christians,so where did
this start?I know about the Madalla bombing which they came out and
claimed.Iam discounting that one, they claimed they did it.And they gave
reasons.They said retaliation for Jos or whatever happened in Jos at
Sallah.But other bombings, we believe, many of us believe that it was
being sponsored by some fifth columnists in the government” said the
former minister .
But to achieve what aim? Find out in these excerpts :
Q : Give us your assessment of the role you play now not just
as an opposition politician, but a public affairs analyst interacting
with the real people on the ground,on the internet and all that.It is
a transition from being a government insider to a commentator from the
outside.It wouldn’t appear like you were prepared for that ,what
happened?
A:I don’t know whether there is substantial difference between being a
government insider and a commentator, because you see to perform ..As
I was saying,Iam sayin, Iam not sure there is substantial difference
between being a government insider and a public commentator,if you
really want to do our job well in government because for one to do
one’s job well in government you need tobe grounded, you neeed to be
close to the people ,you need to know what people are thinking and you
also need to be able to consider public policies and get them debated.So
it is not substantially different.It is just that some people think
that when they are in government,they should just take what is there and
move on with it.Throughout my nine years in government ,I have always
tried to challenge the status quo.Many people would not know
this,because internally within the government we have our tendencies and
factions.But I have always tried to do things the way they ought to be
done rather than the way the system prescribes.So even within the
government,I was always writing policy papers,always arguing contrarian
positions.So for me, it is not so different.And I also believe
strongly when ou government assignment has to do with delivering
services to ordinary people, you must find a way to connect with
ordinary people.When I was minister of FCT,I had quarterly Town Hall
Meeting and everyone in Abuja was invited because I wanted to know what
people felt about our policies and we had extensive debates about policy
direction.We didn’t always agree.But we tried to explain what we were
doing.So Iam not so sure there is a huge gulf between the two.This is my
point.Am I prepared for it?I don’t know.But you know in this life,you
just do you best and circumstances define what you have to do.I mean the
farthest thing from my mind when I left government in 2007 was that I
would end up having to confront the Yar Adua administration because
Umaru YarAdua was like an elder brother to me.And I had great affection
for him and I thought he had a lot for me as well and I contributed
what I could both as a brother , and a friend, an elderly kind of
friend as well as a loyal member of the Obasanjo administration to his
election, his success.And indeed even up to the night of the handover,
we were in YarAdua’s GuestHouse,writing his inaugural speech.So we were
that close.So the last thing in my mind was that I would end up in two
years from that date in exile and in a vehement quarrel with Umaru
YarAdua.But when things are thrown at you, you just have to adjust to
the realities and respond to them.
Q:Yes ,you have just delved into what I was going to ask. I
was going to say from what we know,you didn’t seem prepared for this
position you are taking now because you were expected to continue with
the YarAdua regime.I was going to ask you,why did you fall out with him
really?
A:First of all,let me correct an impression.I was not expected to
continue with the YarAdua administration.I did not expect it because I
had told YarAdua, the moment his election was settle.The moment he was
declared the president elect,I went to him and said to him ,you know,
Mallam,I called him Mallam,these are my plans for the next two
years.Okay,I had started studying law with the University of London ,9
years earlier and I had just one year to finish when I got drawn into
government as adviser to General Abdulsalam and since then my studies
suffered.I was determined to finish that LLB.And I had plans to go to
Harvard Kennedy School of Government for the previous 10 years.Again,
the year I was to go to Harvard was the year I was appointed head of
BPE.So that plan was deferred.I have very specific plans in my life and I
have always tried to see them through.And I told him,for these two
reasons, Iam going to take two years off to be in school.So he
knew.Umaru YarAdua knew that I was not available.There were speculations
all over.Nuhu Ribadu in particular was fighting hard for me to be
minister of power or whatever.But knew that I was not going to be there
because I had my own personal plans.I had put my life on hold for 9
years because of public service which was quite accidental as far as I
was concerned and I was determined to take a break, refresh, write a
book, and finish my law degree and do my public administration and
public policy degree at Harvard.So I was determined to do that.So I
knew.It was just people outside that were getting worked up over
nothing.But I knew I wasn’t going to be.YarAdua knew.But he said to me I
would still need you to advise me.I said Iam available anytime
Q:May be that is why there was this strong perception then
that you were actually expected to come back as somebody to take charge
of the energy sector.But when it didn’t happen.
A:You know,the reason behind that was a combination of two
accidents.In February 2007,power generation in Nigeria collapsed to 1600
megawatts.So President Obasanjo appointed me the chairman of a cabinet
committee to improve power supply and by April we had moved power
supply to 3200 megawatts.I chaired that committee which included
virtually all the stakeholders in the power sector and we recorded
significant improvements in power supply.That was one accident.And
because that was probably the last cabinet committee I chaired in
government,people thought that Obasanjo put me to do that to prepare me
for something.The second thing that happened was that there was a book
launch towards the dying days of the administration, a book written by a
former BPE staff Ajayi Olowo on me.I was the subject of the book.And we
went for the book launch .And during the book launch, Nuhu Ribadu made a
speech and he said something like Nasir has done well here and there
and now he has been brought in to improve the power sector and he has
done it.Something like that .And the next day the headline was el Rufai
was goingto be the Energy Minister.It was ridiculous.Nuhu didn’t say
that. He didn’t even suggest that.But thse speculations started.But I
knew that I wasn’t going to be (there).But people had their own
expectations but I knew the reality.I knew what my plans were and I
was determined to go ahead with them.I told president Umaru YarAdua
then, look if you need me to think about any issue or you need my advice
on any matter,a phone call,an e-mail.Wherever Iam anywhere in the
world were only a few hours away.I will buy a ticket and come back
because honestly the affections I had ,the respect I had for Umaru
YarAdua,if he asked me to do anything I would other than serve full term
in government,I made it very clear,I wasn’t available full time.And if
you remember,around September of the same year, he appointed me as a
member of his Energy Council.But before I accepted it,I had to ask
him,what does it entail and he said look, you and I agreed that anything
part time you would help me out.And that is why I accepted…I had my
very clear plans.I wasn’t prepared to do anything full time in
government until I took care of my personal matters.
Q:Your assertions now would appear strange to some of us
who followed the stories then.The impression we were given was that you
were used, I mean yourself and Ribadu(I wouldn’t say used, but worked
thoroughly to ensure that he(YarAdua ) had a foothold on stakeholders
and even his emergence as president.Doing all the exploratory manouevres
across the north and several parts of the country with a view to
probably helping him stabilize after inauguration.But this notion that
you just wanted to do it and end at some point was not in the public
domain.
A:Well ,you see,because people expect, in this country people expect
that when you do things in politics, it is in expectation of
something.Iam not a politician.I didn’t come out of that school…You
see,I have had the privilege of having been a presidential adviser under
General Abdulsalam,Director General under Obasanjo and cabinet
minister .None of these appointments I got by lobbying or by doing
anything as apolitical favour.I got these appointments because somebody
identified me as capable of doing something and invited me.So everything
I did in my public service ,I did because I believed it was in the best
interest of Nigeria,not in expectation of anything.For many people to
see us rally around YarAdua and support his political aspirations, they
expected that we were doing so because we were going to be settled
somehow.But for me personally,I don’t know about Nuhu.Nuhu was a career
public servant,so he did this as a matter of duty.But for me
personally, I didn’t do anything for YarAdua because I expected him to
do anything for me.I didn’t want anything.I just wanted to move on with
my life.And I have written about this.I wrote an essay on my
relationship with YarAdua when I was in exile.When Umaru was invited by
Obasanjo and asked to go and pick the nomination forms,I wasone of the
first people he went to visit in Abuja.He came to my residence and
spoke to me and sought for my support and I told him that of course
,you can take my support for granted.I said what else do you want?He
said bring the economic team to support me because you guys have done
this,I need your and I said no problem.So all these things I did
unconditionally.I did not do it in expectation of anthing.I did it
because I believed Umaru was going to be a decent president and we also
believed that it was time for elections to take place and…….
Q:The picture you have given me is something that tries to
contradict a few things we had noted about the man YarAdua, your
relationship with him and your eventual parting of ways.May be you
should just briefly tell us from you experience now,Iam sorry for trying
to copy this presidency’s idea.Tell us about the YarAdua we don’t know
A:Well, I don’t know whether Iam the right person to ask that question
Q:From you encounters
A: Because ,the YarAdua I knew was YarAdua the student in Ahmadu
Bello University,YarAdua the bachelor before he married Turai.I met him
before Turai met him.I knew him before Turai knew him. And YarAdua the
lecturer at CASS,General Manager of Sambo farms.This was the YarAdua I
knew.Okay.Major General Shehu YarAdua’s kid brother and so on and a
respected elder brother I know that ..I didn’t know YarAdua as governor
because I visited Katsina only once throughout the time he was
governor.I didn’t know him as president ,and he surprised me because he
turned out to be completely different from what I thought he would
be.So I think there has been some kind of metamorphosis.A transformation
from the YarAdua the person to YarAdua the president.And I think only
those that have worked with him through these trajectories would be in
the best position.
Q:What particular difference did you notice?
A:Well, you know, let me just say this.Many people think YarAdua is
very quiet and doesn’t say much.Wrong!If YarAdua is comfortable with
you, as he was with me,80% of the time he was the one talking when Iam
with him.Anytime I was with YarAdua ,80% of the time, he was the one
talking.But the moment a stranger comes in ,he keeps quiet.But
honestly,I thought that everything I knew about him pointed to the fact
that he was going to be a decent president,hewould get good guys to
work with him,he would be open to new ideas and when he became
president, he seemed closed and so on and so forth.And before he could
find his feet ,I guess his illness became more serious and he just never
recovered.
Q:From the little I knew about what we thought was the
relationship between you , I was particularly shocked that you found you
way into exile.So what was the problem?
A:I honestly don’t know for sure.I can only tell you all the snippets
I have heard because one of the things I had to do was to try to figure
out why,what happened to YarAdua?What did I do wrong?You know because
as a human being, I must open myself to learning what did I do
wrong?What did I do to offend this man that he would want me
dead,because YarAdua wanted me dead.It was that bad.
Q:In what sense?
A:I had very reliable information from very senior security sources
that there was a point at which if I came back to Nigeria,I was not
going to be left alive,I was going to get killed.It was that bad and the
person that told me is not a flippant person and he was well connected
in the administration.And I had to ask myself so, why,what happened?This
man that I had seen like someone like an elder brother from 1972 when I
first met him.What happened?What did I do wrong? So to try to find
answers to that question,I had tried to speak to many people that were
close to YarAdua in his presidency.Many that were his advisers,many that
were his minister,some governors like James Ibori.I went to visit James
Ibori in ubai prison to ask him precisely that question.As YarAdua
confided in you as to what I did to him?
Q:What did Ibori say?
A:I will not be specific but let me tell you the two or three stories
I have heard.Some people in th YarAdua circle said Obasanjo told
YarAdua to be very careful of Nuhu Ribadu and Nasir el Rufai.That we
were stubborn and we were going to give YarAdua problem.So YarAdua felt
the need to take us out,because Obasanjo sort of scared him into that we
‘d be threats to him.Now,I don’t buy that.I don’t buy that because I
knew for sure that it was not everything that Obasanjo told YarAdua
that he did.So,if he picked and chose what he wanted to do,why did he
pick and choose this to go after me or after Nuhu?..It wasn’t like
Obasanjo tells YarAdua go to the toilet and he does and so on.So for me,
even if that is true and I doubt it,I still hold YarAdua responsible
because he took his action,he chose what to act upon and what not to
act upon.The other one we’ve heard was that YarAdua just felt that Nuhu
and myself were too visible and we thought too much of ourselves.That
Obasanjo gave us too much lee way and we had become national figures
and he just felt threatened by us and he felt the need to clip our
wings.But I was not in government.I was not even in the country when all
these things started.When the public hearings that he sponsored against
me in the Senate started, I was in London trying to complete my law
degree.I came back just to appear before the committee.I was not even I
the country.So how could someone that has left the country and minding
his own business be a threat to you.You understand,of course Nuhu was
here and doing his job.So perhaps Nuhu appeared as a threat.But I didn’t
see us, I didn’t see me as a threat.The third one that we heard which
to me is probably more believable because it made more sense knowing
YarAdua and his links to spiritualists was that a particular
spiritualist that YarAdua listened to a lot told him that a certain
person that is slender,wearing glasses,whose name starts with the
letter N was going to run for president in 2011.And YarAdua thought
that must be me,because there were also stories going round then,even
when YarAdua picked the nomination forms that Obasanjo considered me or
him in the final shortlist.I don’t think it is true .As far as I know,
the people on Obasanjo’s final shortlist were YarAdua,(Ahmed )Makarfi
and Abdullahi Adamu.These were the three I knew that Obasanjo was
actively considering when it was clear he couldn’t hand over to
(Peter)Odili.But Odili was his (Obasanjo’s) first choice.These we
knew.All of us in the government we knew.Okay?So I don’t think my name
ever came into any shortlist.But YarAdua must have heard that and now, a
marabout telling him that somebody whose name starts with the letter N
was going to run for president in 2011 ,was going to challenge him.So he
felt that he needed to go after us.To go after me and may be
Nuhu,because Nuhu’s name starts with N too.And maybe the marabout was
right afterall because in 2011,Nuhu Ribadu ran for president.But it
wasn’t me.But I wear glasses and Ian slender like Nuhu.I don’t think
they said the guy was tall or short.If they had said the guy was
tall,maybe Iwould have been saved the aggravation.But this version to me
is more believable,knowing Umaru YarAdua and his fixation on
spiritualists and marabouts and all that.So I have spoken to many
people.I don’t want to mention their names because some of them spoke to
me in strictest confidence.But my visit to James Ibori was widely
known,so I will say that.So I spoke to people like that close to YarAdua
to try to figure out what did I do wrong, because I need to
learn,because there is n oint repeating the same mistakes.What did I do
because as far as I know all I have done for Umaru YarAdua all my life
was respect, affection and help and support.And I don’t want to go into
the ways and means I have supported him all through the years because I
have.I know that his family knows .Those close to know know what I did
for him even in his presidential one.So I don’t need to go into
that.But how can I be nice to someone and then he turns back and goes
after me and even wanting me dead,I had to learn.So that is why I had
to all these.But at the end of the day,again out of fate only confused
because I couldn’t get anything substantive as to what it was I did.It
was mostly what he felt I would do or you know…So I was convicted of a
crime that I was yet to commit in the Yar Adua court.That was all.But it
also made me feel better because then I knew I didn’t do anything.If I
knew in my heart of hearts that I had offended him,I would have felt
bad,but it was clear that I had not and I was just targeted for
destruction.
Q:Interesting revelations because ,coming after .like you
said earlier, you had told him that you were not going to be in
government, that you were going to be operating from the outside.And
even if anybody told him,asid from the marabouts, because there were
also stories then too that some of the insiders were also telling him
that you could be a threat to him.We heard those kind of (talks)
A:(nod)Hmmmnn
Q:If you had actually told him privately that this was your position,why would he become so overwhelmed by..
A:..I later learnt, because I made that point.But how could I be a
threat to YarAdua when I was out of the country , in school..(They) said
well you know, you went to UK and America so that so that you would
develop your war chest to come and fight him because you have very rich
American and British friends and companies and all your imperialist
supporters, because you are an IMF World Bank boy,you did
privatization,you did this, you did that.So they most have represented
to him that even my declining to be available for public service and my
relocation to UK and US to study was a strategic move to prepare for
2011.And it was ridiculous because it was none of those.I just like
going to school.As a matter o fact,since I left university in1980,every 3
years,I make it a point o duty,every two, three years, I go back to
school because, I think learning is a continuous process.Even this
October, Iam going to school because I haven’t been to any educational
institution since I graduated from Harvard since 2009 and Iam feeling a
little lost.I always like going to school to update myself.So I go.Two
-week, three-week programme every two , three years.That’s how
Iam.That’s what I enjoy doing
Q:But eventually hat we saw was a torrent of events like the
senate probe and then the final decision to indict you and stuff like
that
A:Yes
Q:And , of course it is evident from what we have been saying
so far ..and from (media ) reports then that most of those things
were masterminded by the YarAdua presidency.But the real worry for me
is ,beyond money that is always said to have been presented before
national assembly members to get them to do the bidding of the
presidency,why is it that our national assembly can’t in the real sense
extricate itself from the presidency?They are always seen as being at
the beck and call of the presidency.What exactly is the problem?
A:I don’t know.I can only offer two or three facts on the matter.You
know the national assembly is the least developed arm of
government,because anytime the military takes over,the first thing they
do is to dissolve the legislative because that is the real
representative of the people.So our legislative culture has not
developed in the same way the executive branch and the judicial branch
have remained preserved and been developing somewhat.And in any case,
in the three arms of government, the executive is always first among
equals because it is the largest branch of the government and it is the
one that gets things done.The judiciary settles disputes, I could
overrule both the legislature and the executive and say what you are
doing is unconstitutional but that is it.So I think the immature
legislative culture in the country as a result of prolonged years of
military rule is partly responsible for that.Secondly,I think most
politicians go into politics as a business. Unfortunately ,this is the
political culture that has developed in Nigeria.It is not public
service, it is business.It is a way to be comfortable.It is a way to be
rich.It is a way to get your friends and your companies and your
relations contracts and so on and so forth..Now ,because of that the
only way you can get contracts is to be subservient to the executive
branch because they award the contracts.The only way you can get
employment for your friends and your constituents is to be subservient
to the executive branch because they are the ones with jobs to offer…And
thirdly, because the institutions are week and there are no checks and
balances and everyone can just get away with everything literally,there
is a conspiracy between the arms of government to just to just rub
their backs.So there is no sense of objectivity in pursuing one’s
mandate.So there is this incestuous relationship between the executive
and the legislative branches and with the executive branch having the
advantage of balance of power because of its control of resources and
jobs and contracts and so on and so forth.This is what I think is
happening. But finally and most important, and I think this is the point
really , this is where we went badly wrong, is the current system in
which governors at the state level and the president at national level
control parties.So they control who got nominations.So if you are a
senator from you state and you are vocal against the president and you
are in the same party as the president,you can bet your life at the next
election cycle, you would lose the nomination, you will not come back
to the senate or the House. So all these are part of the problem that
have led to the situation that we have now found ourselves.And I think
it is unfortunate because without the three arms of government
independent of one another to a large degree and checking each
other,what we have is a dictatorship.Dictatorship of the few against
the many and that will be very sad in deed.
Q:..Up till now.when you have probes here and there, you
will still find a situation whereby there is always that tendency to
kowtow before the Villa.The oil probe and all this kind of thing.It is a
sickening thing and we don’t seem to have a way out it..
A:You know unless and until we begin to first have credible
elections so that people know that when they misbehave, they will be
voted out for sure.And two ,we pick the right people in these positions,
we will not make any progress.A person with no pedigree, with no name
and no honour has nothing to lose.So he will sell out to anyone that is
ready to pay him.Okay?And this is, most of the people we have in
elective and appointive positions in government are of that
quality.Most.There are some very few people with a name or a pedigree
that they would not do certain things to spoil their family name.Most
people come out of nowhere ..(pause)
Q:You were saying some people just came from nowhere..
A:and are holding positions that they never dreamt of and they have
nothing to lose.They just think that if they have enough money they will
be able to disappear and justify their criminality.So that is one
problem and this affects politics all across this country.The second
thing is elections must matter .Elections must matter.If people know
that they were elected and if they misbehave and it is known ,they would
lose the next election, they would behave well themselves.But when
people know that they do not not have to win elections,they do not have
to be voted for, they can pay INEC,SSS,Police to write the results and
declare them the winner and then they steal enough money to bribe the
judges to uphold their elections,why should they work for you?Why
should they be accountable to you as the voter?You didn’t vote for him,
they know it.
Q:It is a major issue you have just touched on.The question
of making elections matter.You know,we ve been saying and have always
known this over the years but somehow,the more that people try to talk
about it, even the INEC people will tell you they are working
towards.But somehow we still found out that even the last (general)
elections , not everybody believed they were credible.
A:I don’t believe the last elections were credible.I don’t believe it.
Q:How do we make elections count?
A:Look,we need to appoint(people) In countries like ours where
institutions are weak,you need people that care about their names and
reputation,much more than they care about the job or the power that
comes with the job,or the patronage that comes with the job and so
on.And you have to do this very,very carefully.
Q:But that’s what we thought somebody like( Professor) Jega would do.Because we thought Jega was a very credible person ..
A:Well maybe you got it wrong.May be you didn’t check well
enough.People have said that reason why our electoral commissioners are
not independent is because they were appointed by the president so they
feel an obligation to the president that is hogwash.The chairman of the
Ghanaian electoral commission was also appointed through the same
process by the president and confirmed by the legislature.But he had a
name to protect and for him, no amount of money was worth putting his
name on the line.The question that you should ask all these people all
these people that are our national commissioners of INEC and so on and
Resident Electoral Commissioners is look at them very well and ask
yourself,is there an amount of money that when offered to them they
would compromise?If there is then you know you don’t have the right
candidate.This is the question.I have studied the Ghanaian constitution
and the Nigerian constitution to see what did Ghana got right that we
got wrong?What Ghana got right was that Jerry Rawlings had the courage
of conviction to pick a person that he knew he could not dictate
to.That is the foundation of Ghana’s electoral system.Rawlings knew
that that man would not rig elections even for Rawlings and if Rawlings
asked him , the man would resign and come out and announce that Rawlings
asked me to rig elections, that is why Iam resigning.That is the key.Do
we have people in Nigeria that you can appoint to positions that would
say rather than do the wrong thing, I would rather leave?This is what we
need.It is not the method of appointment.It is the quality of the
people.If we are able to do that:we ‘ll get some wrong.Im not in any way
suggesting that there was no effort at the last cycle to try to get
credible people.Maybe there was .But clearly, the elections of 2011
were a deception and a fraud.And the point when INEC refused to release
ballot papers and the biometric voters’ register which which we
spent N87billion to do, the moment they refused to release that to the
opposition to prove the electoral fraud in court,I wrote off INEC.Up
until that point, I gave them a chance.But the moment their lawyers went
to the tribunal to try to say that they were not going to provide that
and even connived with the president to remove Justice Salami to
facilitate that, I knew that we didn’t have an INEC to speak about.
Q:You mean INEC connived with the president to remove Justice Salami?
A:Yes, they were part of the conspiracy,I believe that.
Q:But to imagine that things like that happened under a Jega-led INEC is just very strange but people have spoken….
A:It is strange but it has happened.The records are there.Justice
Salami gave an order for INEC to produce the ballot papers and the
biometric register and make it available to the opposition parties to
match the ballot papers with the biometric register and INEC delayed and
delayed until Salami was removed.And for Jega to even come and
testify,he found a reason not to be in the country on the day he was
supposed to testify.This happened in court.I was attending the
tribunals.I saw it and I was shocked.But this happened.Whatever
conclusion you draw from that is up to you.But for me that was the day I
gave up. I said well, we are in a hopeless situation.But unless we find
a way to fix that,unless we find a way to have clean elections,our
democracy will be a farce and this country will not have peace.
Q:After returning from exile,coming back after the unfortunate death of YarAdua..
A:No I came back before YarAdua died
Q:Sure that is true..
A:I came back on the 1
st of May, he died on the 5
th .
Q:But we all knew the health condition then, he was in a very
sorry state.Now, those were the heady day of whether this man
(Jonathan )should be acting president or not and some of us thought you
were also close to Jonathan because, like I was telling you earlier, we
understood you were part of those that helped in making Jonathan
YarAdua’s running mate.But some how you seem to have parted ways..
A:First ,let me correct that impression,we did not play any role in the emergence of any candidate as such
Q:But you played…
A:(cuts in)Not directly .At a point, we came to the conclusion that
President Obasanjo wanted Odili to succeed him and we were opposed to
that because Odili had been investigated by the EFCC and had been found
wanting in many areas.He was the governor of a very rich state that just
frittered away the resources of the state to pursue a presidential
ambition.We didn’t think that with the issues Odili had, he was the
best candidate.So we were opposed to that.But having said that and of
course by the time Obasanjo picked YarAdua on the night of the
convention, a speech was prepared for YarAdua,an acceptance speech with
Odili listed in the speech as his running mate.It was Nuhu,well, it was
first the governors that opposed it and then Nuhu Ribadu woke up and
wet to see Obasanjo and that matter was settled.So we played a role in
saying no this one is not the right person,but we didn’t have any hand
in who ended up being picked.For instance as I said, we thought Odili
was the wrong person because of the issues surrounding his tenure in
Rivers state.But we didn’t have a hand in YarAdua being selected over..
Q:And you didn’t select any alternative to Odili as running mate?
A:No, no no.Look, we didn’t.We didn’t select anybody.Because that was the prerogative of the party and the president.
Q:But we learnt that some of you felt that at least the running mate should be an Igbo man or something like that?
A:I told Obasanjo.It was not some of us.I can speak for myself.After
the Odili thing was dropped and Obasanjo said a decision would be taken
and YarAdua just read his acceptance speech without it, I was of the
opinion that selecting a south east running mate is in accordance with
the natural order of things in Nigeria,the tripod.I thought that the
running mate should be an Ibo person so that after YarAdua’s two terms
,there would be a natural progression to a south east presidency.That
was how I thought.Obasanjo felt otherwise.He gave the reason that the
south south had never produced a president but the south east has
produced one or two and said that he was picking a south south running
mate.That was the extent of the conversation I had with Obasanjo on this
subject and we had no hand in who he ended up picking the next day.The
next day, we just got the information that he had picked Goodluck
Jonathan.
Q:And so, maybe it was this background of misperception about the way you were close to him,President Jonathan , I mean
A 
Cuts in)Jonathan is my friend,has been my friend from 2003.I am not
denyingthat.Iam just saying that even though he was my friend,even
though I was a regular visitor to Bayelsa state when he was governor
and he visited me several times here in Abuja while I was minister.He
came with his executive council to attend an FCT Exco meeting one day,I
still remember all that
Q:You mean (as governor of) Bayelsa state?
A:Yeah.We are very good friends and we still are by the way
Q:Hmnnnn?
A:Even though we have parted ways politically.Yes, yes,whatever is
happening between us is not personal,it’s institutional.But I had no
role in him(Jonathan) being vice president.No, I have to say that.I
played a role in fighting the YarAdua cabal when they were playing all
kind of game to delay compliance with the constitution,because I was one
of the signatories of the call for resignation,the G-53 and G-57 which
became Save Nigeria Group.I was one of the founding members of that
group.So ,yeah, we played a role.But I diddn’t do it because Jonathan
was my friend.I did it because we have a constitution and if the
president is incapacitated, the vice president should take over.Whether
the vice president is black or blue or from Mars or from the moon,I
don’t are.I believe that we should comply with the constitution .And
this is why people like us,Pastor Tunde Bakare all came out and
organized marches and all that to push for this solution.So people that
now turn round and say you are attacking Jonathan conveniently forget
some of these roles that we played in enabling Jonathan to get to the
position …But we didn’t do it because we liked him or didn’t like him.We
did it because it was the right thing .And today if Jonathan as
president is not doing the right thing,we’ll also similarly tell him and
that is what we have been doing.
Q:But there is a follow up question I need to ask.I remember very
that the political environment in which there is this kind of hiatus
between pro-Jonathan, anti-Jonatha even within the PDP before you even
talk of the opposition is something I find strange.Here was a man who
everybody that matters I this country united in favour of his emerging
as acting president.You had Buhari, you had IBB..
A:All of them
Q:Gowon, all of them were saying this man must be acting president.He came to power with the highest amount of goodwill
A:Yes, because of the way he was being maltreated by the YarAdua (cabal)
Q:what happened,that shortly between that period of his
emergence as acting president and when the election time came ,what
happened so terribly that the goodwill was just frittered away?What
could have been responsible for this frittering away of goodwill that we
had this kind of quarrelsome (election and polity ever since)?
A:It is crass political mismanagement.Because as you correctly
pointed out, he came into the acting presidency with millions of tonnes
of goodwill.But he frittered all away by just being provincial,very
narrow-minded politics and lacking in long-term strategy.First, as soon
as Jonathan stabilized, it became clear that just like YarAdua tended
to be very provincial about Katsina- Kano axis, Jonathan also was
increasingly being seen as an Ijaw president.So he began to lose a lot
of goodwill.Secondly,the way and manner he approached the pursuit of his
presidential ambition by denying the existence of zoning when he had
been a beneficiary of it just showed him up as a dishonourable
person.He got there because of zoning , otherwise how could he have
been vice president.It was zoning.But he climbed on aladder and he
kicked it away.And that is something you don’t do in politics.And after
the massive spending of money and the militarization and the rigging to
win the elections, he lacked the heart to be inclusive;to call people
and bring everyone back together, develop social cohesion so that he
could govern Some of us that are in opposition were targeted as enemies
to be destroyed.Maybe you can destroy Nasir el Rufai,Iam a small man,
but Buhari is bigger than you,you can’t destroy Buhari.He was Head of
State in 1984.You cannot destroy him.
Q:Did he attempt destroying Buhari?
A:Yes.
Q:In what sense?
A:By tring to pin the post election violence on Buhari and the CPC.By
trying to pin the Boko Haram insurgency on Buhari and others like
him,you are trying to destroy people that have served this country
credibly and honestly.You don’t win by doing that.This is what this
government had tried to do .This is why they have lost all their good
will.But even that would have been okay if they were working.If they
were doing what Nigerians need to live and move on with their lives, it
would have been tolerable.But they are not.This government’s full time
job is stealing.The fuel subsidy fraud showed it.Pensions
fraud.Everywhere you look is fraud.They are doing nothing but taking
care of themselves.But they are making an enemy of everyone that is not
clapping for them and saying stealing is good.This is how Jonathan
lost everything.
Q:Now,you raised this interesting issue…This issue of targeting people,Buhari,making (him) look as the source of Bok Haram
Q:Yes ,Buhari, IBB…You know, a bombing takes place in Abuja 1
st
of October.MEND said we did it.President of Nigeria comes on television
to say it’s not MEND.Two days later we hear from Henry Okar that he had
been called from the Villa to say blame it on Northerners.How do you
make friend that way.Who are the northerners to blame it on?
Q:If it is not Buhari today, it is..
A:IBB
Q:If it is not Buhari, it is IBB.If it is not IBB ..
A:If it is not IBB, Abdulsalam
Q:It is El Rufai
A:If it is not IBB,it is Abdulsalam or ElRufai.How can he be president that way?
Q:The question I was going to ask is if these key people are the problem,then who will be the solution?
A:I think you should pass that question to Jonathan,because these
people that youmentioned-IBB,Buhari,Abdulsalam,Atiku, they all served
this country.They did not do anything to bring the country down.So what
is all this?How can you just wake up one morning and try to criminalize
them and you think that they will sit back and accept it because you
are president? I don’t know about them,but anybody that tries to
criminalize Nasir elRufai should know that he has a battle on his hands
till one of us drops dead.And if they have any doubts, they should go
and ask Umaru YarAdua.I will fight you until Iam dead or you are
dead.Because I will not sit back and be criminalized.This is what this
government is doing
Q:And probably that is why we have not been able to address
this fundamental .. threat posed by Boko Haram.Why do you think that
it’s been taken this long to actually address the issue which started
like a low level insurgency?
A:Yeah,because the government under Jonathan is not interested in solving it.
Q:How do you mean?
A:Shortly after Jonathan came into power,a committee under the
chairmanship of Air Marshal Dike studied this problem of Boko Haram
because by then Boko Haram had regrouped and started shooting,killing
policemen and other people in uniform in Borno state.That was how it
started.In July 2009,YarAdua ordered that Bok Haram be crushed and flew
to Brazil.There was military operations,people were killed ,houses
destroyed and the leaders of Boko Haram were arrested alive and
extrajudicial executed.That is the root of the problem.That was when
Boko Haram became more and more deadly.The remnants of the leadership
then regrouped and started taking their revenge against policemen.Tha
was the contest when the Air Marshall Dike’s committee was
established.They went, they spent time in the affected areas, the spoke
to stakeholders and came back with clear recommendations as to what was
to be done.At that point in time, from those that participated in the
committee, what Boko Haram wanted was an apology for the execution of
their leaders,financial compensation,rebuilding oftheir homes and
mosques that were destroyed and release of their members and they said
they would back of.This information is in the Dike report.The Dike
Report also recommendaed some social and infrastructural interventions
in that region to create employment so that the young people that are
easy recruits of Boko Haram would be reduced in number.All these are in
the report.This report has been with Jonathan from the time he as
president,it has not been acted upon.
Q:You mean from the time he was acting president?
A:Yes.It has not been acted upon.After that another the Chairmanship
of Ambassador Gaji Galtimari was set up to go and look at the
problem.Gaji Galtimari is from that area.And he was somebody who had
been secretary to the government.Gaji Galtimari’s committee also studied
the situation ,talked to stakeholders and came back with similar
recommendations.Nobody has heard of whathas happened to that report.It
has not been implemented.After he elections, Jonathan established the
Sheikh Lemu Committee to look at Post Election Violence.They went round
the country including areas affected by Boko Haram.And they submitted
recommendations on how to resolve post election crisis as well as the
collateral issue of insurgency.The report is till with the government.So
what Iam trying to say is this,the government knows this problem,it has
been studied to death.They know the solutions,but they have refused to
implement them.Why,because initially,the attitude of the Jonathan
administration to this Boko Haram insurgency was founded on two
assumptions.One,northerners are killing themelves, we don’t care.And a
special adviser to Jonathan said this in June 2011 to friend of
mine.This is not rumour.I can mention names if need be
Q:But you don’t want to mention it now?
A:But the person that said it knows he said it in London in June in
the Hilton,Park Lane Hilton.’Northerners are killing themselves, what is
our own?’This is one leg of their attitude.The second leg is Boko Haram
is a plot by northerners to destabilize Jonathan’s government, so it is
not our problem, we will crush them.And the crushing them means try to
link Boko Haram to some of us in opposition.If you go to m facebook
wall, you will see it, people call me Boko Haramist all kind of
things.They call me Boko Harmists, they call me all kind of things.This
is the attitude.Now,in the beginning it was a low level insurgency
alright,but it could have been contained if the recommendations of
various committees had been implemented and so on.But the attitude of
the administration was ,we don’t care and we’ll pin it on Buhari,IBB,CPC
and so on.So they spent their time looking at the wrong direction and
these guys got stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and it
got to a point that the government was just unable to contain the
situation.And anyone that tried to make a suggestion,that look why don’t
you look at those reports or negotiate with these people is termed a
Boko haram sponsor or sympathizer.So what happened,everyone just stepped
back, folded his alms and said okay you want to solve it you
way?Fine.But there is also something else going on.The government was
also doing their own Boko Haram
Q:You have said this(before)and you are insisting
A:I have said this and Iam still restating it.And there is circumstantial evidence to that effect.
Q:What is giving you so much confidence ?
A:You know I have always felt,I have always asked myself why would
Boko Haram go and plant a bomb in a church?Why?Boko Haram considers
nonpractising muslims a bigger enemy than Christians.I don’t think their
problem has ever been with Christians,so where did this start?I know
about the Madalla bombing which they came out and claimed.Iam
discounting that one they claimed they did it.And they gave reasons.They
said retaliation for Jos or whatever happened in Jos at Sallah.But
other bombings, we believe, many of us believe that it was being
sponsored by some fifth columnists in the government
Q:To achieve what aim?
A:Divide the country.Division.
Q:In whose interest?
A:I don’t know.You know people do their own calculations and their
projections thinking that the way they think something is the way things
will work out.They don’t know that life doesn’t quite work out the way
you plan it.But clearly, there is deliberate policy of division being
promoted by these people and I don’t know to what end.
Q:Maybe you should tell us about life in the opposition
because you have faced some risks and all that, being arrested by the
SSS.How do you cope with this,and ou seem to enjoy it ,you are laughing?
A:No no no, Iam not laughing.You know what, .. as I said you deal
with the card faith hands to you.If I have chosen to leave the
PDP,because I think it is a gang of criminals and I don’t want to be
with them and Iam doing something different and they are in power, I
will expect consequences.I knew that. I made that calculation.
Q:So you are not surprised that SSS comes after you?
A:Iam not surprised.I mean the security agencies think they are
instruments of those in power rather than instruments of the state,so I
expected that things like that will happen.When it happens,I just take
it and move on.What am I supposed to do? Cry? I can’t.Whatever life
confronts you with, you try to solve it.I don’t get worried about that.
Q:Let’s dash into this issue:You party(CPC) is trying to work out an alliance or some kind of merger with the ACN
A:Yeah
Q:Towards giving the nation a credible
A:Credible,yeah
Q:Change in 2015.How far is it going,because people still
wonder,why is it taking this long?The entire outfit should be out by
now?
A:Well I don’t want to say a lot about that ..for obvious reasons.But
I just want to assure you we are still negotiating, we are talking and
we are making progress and by God’s grace, we are not only going to
merge, but we are going to take other parties with us,so Nigerians will
have a credible opposition platform with a fighting chance of defeating
PDP at the next election.
Q:And this fighting chance,people generall think means making
Buhari the presidential candidate..Why Buhari,Buhari always after all
the experience we have heard?
A:I don’t think that issue is on the table right now.What is on the
table right now is the unity of the opposition and building strong
structures all over the country to merge and outstrip that of the
PDP.When the parties all come together,the decision as to which
candidate is in the best position to win the election will be taken.And
which candidate is finally selected by the merged parties will even
depend on whether that candidate is likely to face a Jonathan or someone
else.So it is too early to start making those calculations.Of course,
there are presidential aspirants all over,you could speculate about who
would emerge.Of course, Buhari is a strong candidate,having been
president before and the general level of insecurity and corruption and
impunity in this country may probably call for someone with Buhari’s
credentials.But that is not on the table right now.What is on the table
right now is to unite and build a very strong nationwide party….
