Power Game SERIES
From Desmond Mgboh, Kano
Junaidu Mohammed, former parliamentarian, Russian-trained medical
practitioner, leading critic on national politics and National Chairman
of the Peoples Salvation Party (PSP), is a man that loves confronting
issues passionately, frankly and decisively.
In this interview held in Kano, he speaks on President Jonathan’s
outburst on being the most criticized president in the world, Dr. Barth
Nnaji’s resignation, Chief Doyin Okupe’s failed contract in Benue State,
and the CBN’s N5,000 note. He also speaks on big men’s sons fingered in
the fuel subsidy racket, and Prof. Akinyemi’s call for quota
representation for non-indigenes outside their states. Excerpts:
Recently, President Goodluck Jonathan said he’s the most
criticized president in the world and hopes he will end up the most
loved president. Do you make of that?
Frankly, if I had a say in drafting your questions, I wouldn’t have
asked you to put this question to me. If you look at the issues we are
confronted with in this country: issues of national security, economic
near meltdown, bungling of economic policies, constitutional amendment,
the very nature of the Nigerian State, the rights and responsibilities
of citizenship, the dichotomy being introduced into indigeneship and
citizenship, and the rights attached to it, I would have thought there
are more important issues to worry about than the perception of the
president being criticized and being loved somewhere along the road.
As far as I am concerned, if you are in politics, you are there to be
criticized because we are practicing democracy, or at least, we imagine
that we are practicing democracy. And if you don’t want to be
criticized, then don’t come into public life. If you are in politics,
you are there to be criticized, unless of course, you want to be a
dictator which is a different thing entirely.
To me, it is utterly irrelevant what Jonathan thinks about himself
and how he rates himself vis-a-vis other presidents. I dare say that if
he is talking about other presidents, he must be talking about
democratically elected presidents, people who came to power by way of
free, fair and credible elections. I certainly do not believe he came to
power that way. I do not believe his party is a democratic party.
For him, looking at a crystal ball and saying he is going to be the
most loved president in Nigeria, well, we will wait and see. For all I
care, whether he is loved or hated, Nigerians are going to assess him on
the basis of policies he put in place. And secondly, on the kind of
personnel he brings to government and how they performed. So, the thrash
of being loved or hated is immaterial, it is his policies that will
carry him through history.
But, do you think some of the criticisms are valid or are mere hangovers of a hate mindset?
Well, you have to tell me the criticisms and state the specific policies for me to be able to respond.
For instance, he has been criticized over the economy and the
security challenges, but he is saying some of these problems did not
start with his presidency?
How long have you been living in Kano? I hope long enough to know the
difference between the Kano of when you were growing up and the Kano of
today. You cannot tell me that the Kano of those days and today are the
same experience.
Number two, the sense of belonging of the average Nigerian cannot be
said to be the same, particularly from the time he became president of
Nigeria. In my entire life, for instance, I have never seen or heard a
man come out openly to abuse other Nigerians on the pages of newspapers
the way Edward Clark does with ease, the way so many other people from
the so-called South-South do? If that is not different to you, then it
is different to me. I know that Nigerians do have their own stereotypes;
they describe other Nigerians in pejorative terms. But I have never
seen it done openly, systematically like it is being done now by
individuals close to the president. And if that is not an unhealthy
development, then I don’t know what is. And it started squarely,
squarely I repeat, with President Jonathan.
Secondly, Nigeria, like any other country, has gone through economic
hard times. But whenever the country was in trouble, the government
takes the trouble to explain to the people, rightly or wrongly, but they
did at least make efforts to explain to the people. They will not put
forward a very flippant Governor of the Central Bank, who has assumed
the role of economic spokesman of the government, to start insulting
people. When the people say there is something they don’t like about an
economic policy, this boy says it is irreversible. There is nothing in a
democracy that allows for this kind of foul response from an appointed
person, who has never won an election and will never win an election.
This is the kind of boys put forward as spin doctors and spokespersons
for economic policy, which clearly is not working.
Now, if this is the kind of thing you think is good and for which we
must praise Goodluck Jonathan, then tough luck. You can assume, for
example, and you can say rightly that he did not appoint Lamido Sanusi
as Governor of the Central Bank. I will agree with you. But today, he is
the President of Nigeria and the Governor holds his position at the
pleasure of the President of Nigeria – he can sack the Governor of the
Central Bank tomorrow and can dissolve the Board of the Central Bank and
get rid of the Governor and the Deputy Governors.
I believe what the Senate intended to do to tame this arrogant man by
amending the Central Bank’s decree was childish and it is a way of
personalizing lawmaking. You do not make laws for an individual; you
make laws for the entire country. If they really wanted, they should
first pass a vote of no confidence on the Governor and then insists
within their own party or within the National Assembly that he must be
sacked. They did not do that. They kept quiet for whatever reasons and
now we are stuck with it.
The President’s wife is sick, but there is total silence about it.
History is replaying itself somehow. Jonathan’s group, which sought
openness in the handling of the late President Yar‘Adua’s health, is not
providing information on Dame Patience’s health.
A system is a system. And if you want to make amendment or anything,
please go to the system. When Turai was playing Russian Roulette with
the destiny of 150 million Nigerians, many of us said the woman was not
elected. People who have not gone through the crucible of election and
winning have no business determining the fate of a country, or our
destiny.
The idea of a so-called First Lady is not even in our constitution.
It is easy for any charge and bail lawyer to take this matter to court
and establish that the idea of First Lady is not in our constitution and
is therefore, unconstitutional. How do you allow women who have not won
election – many of them do not even have the characters you can look up
to as role models – how can these women who accidentally married their
husbands, not knowing what destiny had in stock, simply emerge and
assume certain powers, and these powers are to the detriment of the
entire country? The idea of the so-called First Lady should be quashed
and no budgetary allocation should be allowed, because when you appoint
somebody to spend money, which has been appropriated by the National
Assembly, by definition, you are holding him accountable because the
National Assembly can always call and question him.
The way we have it the money we have for the First Lady is
appropriated under the budget of the Presidency and the President now
decides to allocate billions of naira to the First Lady and she has the
freedom to spend it the way she likes. That, to me, is not a democracy.
Are you saying she is not a national asset and we should not bother ourselves with her health conditions?
No, no! That is wrong. She is a Nigerian and a citizen. In a country
that is running a proper democracy, what affects the mood, the
lifestyle, and comportment and composure of the president should be of
consequence to all of us. But to now spend valuable time, valuable
treasure and even valuable pages of newspapers and radio time discussing
the health of one woman out of a country of about 75 million women is
to me, perverse, irresponsible to the extreme and shows that Nigeria
doesn’t have priorities as a nation.
I certainly want to see the First Lady in good health. And I think,
basically, she is not as offensive in nature as Turai, for example. I
find her rather easy-going, pleasurable and full of humour. But please,
we must learn to differentiate what I called the affairs of state and
affairs of whoever is president. This woman is the responsibility of the
president as a family man. If today he decides to sack her as his wife
or not, that is purely his business.
Former Minister of Power, Dr. Barth Nnaji, has resigned, but
the suggestion is that he was doing something good in the ministry. But
if he was doing something good, why quickly accept his resignation?
Well, I am glad you have touched on an interesting aspect of
mis-governance in Nigeria. For example, as a matter of courtesy, it is
not a legal matter; it is a matter of courtesy. Once you appoint a
person, as the president you do not accept his resignation or dictate
his resignation readily. You must go through the facts and must be
convinced that there is something that warrants the person resigning,
and warrants you to accept his resignation; because it is one thing for
you to resign and another for your resignation to be accepted. You have
power to refuse to accept the resignation.
Number two, in making certain critical appointments, you first put
merit on top and then anything is secondary, whether you call it Federal
Character or loyalty or a sense of appreciation towards a governor or
somebody else.
Now, I don’t know this Barth Nnaji. All I can say is that given what I
know about my own power situation here in Kano, I am not appreciative
of his performance as Minister. Whether he speaks grammar, whether he is
a better engineer in terms of power generation and distribution than
any individual, I don’t care.
What I know is that I have not seen the improvement I had expected;
given the amount of money spent in the sector from the time General
Obasanjo started lying that he would give us reliable power in six
months to the present day. Of course, during the rainy season, there was
some kind of improvement largely because the Niger Dam had enough water
to move the turbines and therefore, generate certain optimal level of
power. But beyond that, there is nothing to explain what this man has
done. I heard he likes publicity and likes coming on television to talk.
But I have seen no improvement.
That is beside the point anyway. Having determined that he was good
enough to be appointed minister, when it comes to sacking him, we have
to be sensitive to certain basic requirements. Has he done anything to
warrant being sacked? Was he actually pushed or did he jump? The sources
I have at my disposal actually told me he did not jump, he was actually
pushed. He was asked to submit his resignation letter. And the question
is, what did he do to warrant that kind of shabby treatment? Nigerians
don’t have a reputation of resigning from their jobs. It must be a sack.
Now, if it was a sack, what did he do? If it was a sack, he must have
done something criminal, because we know how the power sector is being
parceled out to Generals. Companies in which Obasanjo has interest,
Abdulsalami Abubakar has interest, other Generals have made biddings for
some of the portions of power, which is being unbundled and taking off.
If this man has been fingered, then you take him to court rather than
ask him to resign.
The CBN had proposed a N5,000 note. What is your reaction to this proposal?
I have not seen any reason why the Governor of the Central Bank wants
to introduce this denomination of the Naira. Let me tell you, my
understanding is that economics is a highly speculative science and
people who think if they are dealing with economics they are dealing
with a reality, which is immutable and cannot be changed, are talking
nonsense. We are not talking about religion. We are talking about a
science that is on the border line between science and arts.
Those who believe we need a N5000 denomination should tell us why we
need it. They should tell us examples and areas where this had been done
and what the benefits were. If, for whatever reason, the millionaires
in government and those on appointment like the Central Bank Governor,
find themselves in a situation whereby they think it is too clumsy to
hold a 50, 100, 500, 1000 Naira notes for easy transactions, they should
please leave the country or stop dealing in Naira, and use the dollars
they have been using anyway! I have been to parties in Lagos where
people holding government positions spread dollar bills on the faces of
people dancing.
And I know for a fact that this boy in the CBN boasts to his friends
that when he likes, he does his transactions in dollars! And there are
many other Nigerians so privileged to do so. But if the average Nigerian
feels the N5000 note is a bad idea, in a democracy, he should listen
and their wishes should be respected. And if their leaders – and I have
seen quite a lot of people I cannot write off easily, people like Tinubu
and others, who are leaders of thought in their own respective areas,
political leaders, and those who have been in government on both sides –
legislative and executive – saying this is a bad idea, that it is
insensitive, then I think it will be reckless to allow a person (CBN
Governor), who was never elected and has never won an election even when
he was in school, to say there is no going back.
And for the president to copycat that kind of statement is utter
recklessness. You cannot run a democracy and pretend to be undemocratic.
You either are a democrat or you are not. The way this government is
trying to ram the N5000 note idea through our throats, and yet they are
not giving the people any coherent example, rather they are only saying
there is no going back, is in my view, insulting, and speaks volume of
the kind of characters we are either appointing or electing into
positions of trust in Nigeria. And this is a tragedy.
But this same Governor of the Central Bank had in the past
enjoyed your positive commentary. Where did things start getting bad?
Never! I have never said anything positive about him. Go and bring
your notebooks and your tapes. The last time you spoke about his
appointment, I said Yar’Adua was misadvised and mis-guided. And I am
sure Yar’Adua, not being an economist, and certainly not knowing
anything about the responsibilities of a Central Bank Governor, and also
being a very bad judge of character was misadvised and should never
have appointed this boy. However, having done so, all of us will live to
regret the consequences.
I said that first he does not understand the limit of his
responsibility as a Central Bank Governor and I also told you that – if I
remember correctly – you will require certain character profile to be a
Central Bank Governor. This boy talks too much, he is in love with his
voice and he hungers for publicity. That has been his life. For all I
care, this boy was not fit, does not have the basic requirements to be
governor of Central Bank of Nigeria. And by talking too much, he is
rubbishing the institution of the Central Bank and I said no Governor of
the Central Bank talks as much as he does.
And I gave example of the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board in
the United States, Professor Ben Benanki, and King, who was the Governor
of the Bank of England, which is an institution, and I said if we are
building an institution, we should never have appointed people with this
character. I have said this boy is not good and I challenge you to
bring a single sentence where I said this boy was good.
Okay, let us leave Sanusi out of this and go to other questions…
(Cuts in) It is not a question of Sanusi. It is a question of his
policy. Why must you impose a certain denomination of your currency when
a vast majority of the people is opposed to it? It is not an issue of
Sanusi. I don’t bloody care about Sanusi Lamido.
The subsidy probe has led to the prosecution of children and
relatives of those in power. How do we look at the fact that some of
them may have used their positions to get their children to steal us
dry?
My dear Desmond let us stop deceiving ourselves. It is not their
children; it is they, themselves, using their own children in very
reckless manner as decoys, as fronts or as cut-out in these deals to
steal us dry. Who is Bamanga Tukur’s son to go and dictate to either the
Department of Petroleum Resources (DPR) or to the Minister of
Petroleum, or to some of these people in the Presidency, because some of
the decisions on the petroleum subsidy issue could not have been taken
by the Minister? They had to be approved by the very top.
So, you might ask: who are these small, small boys? What have they
done in their lives to get these privileges? You are about their age,
why aren’t you getting the same kind of privileges? If those in
government are liars, must we follow their lies? You know very well that
it is Ahmadu Ali himself, Bamanga Tukur himself who are involved in all
these dirty deals.
But here, let us get at the real issue. When some of us raised the
alarm that the whole idea of subsidy is nothing but a bunch of lies and
that there was nothing like subsidy, the Governor of Central Bank and
other people not only said there was subsidy, but gave us the amount of
subsidy they were spending. Now, they are quiet! Where are they now? Let
them come and tell us who was getting the subsidy fund.
You create a system that allows people to become filthy rich for
themselves, their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. And
now you say this system is only good because it is giving us an
opportunity to be a welfare state or to expand the benefits of the oil
revenue across the board, blabla bla! Now, the whole thing has proved to
be a huge lie.
Minister of petroleum lied, Governor of Central Bank lied, resign? If
you now go into the issue of printing the Naira, let me tell you, you
will find there is a vested interest at work, either that of the
Governor of the Central Bank, or somebody in the Presidency or somebody
close to the Presidency or a big wig in the PDP. That is how the PDP
runs itself.
Back to the question, don’t deceive yourself that these small boys,
who came out of nowhere are going nowhere, as far as their individual
achievements are concerned. When you want to address the whole issue,
you should go and confront Ahmadu Ali, former chairman of the PDP now
aspiring to be chairman of BOT go and attack the current Chairman of the
PDP, Bamanga Tukur, and others like him. I know of a state nearby where
one of Bamanga Tukur’s children went and got a contract, and when they
were threatening to determine the contract, he started boasting that he
was going to raise hell.
It is a PDP state and they went ahead to determine the contract and
there was nothing the boy could do. But we are aware of efforts by
Bamanga Tukur to undermine the governor, even though he could not
succeed because the governor is independently powerful in his own right
and has a base unlike Bamanga Tukur. Let us stop deceiving ourselves.
These boys are running errands for their fathers and they are making
money for their fathers. For all I care, if you are prosecuting a small
boy, who cannot differentiate between his left and right, you are
wasting your time.
If you want to prosecute, you go for the big guns and those of them
involved in it should not only be prosecuted, they should leave the
public positions they are holding. Ahmadu Ali’s son is one of the
chairmen of a federal board or so. He should be asked to resign. If
Ahmadu Ali is holding any position, he should be asked to resign.
Bamanga Tukur too should go, I know their moves to get rid of him
anyway, but that is not my point here. What I am saying is that he
should be made to answer for his own indiscretion.
What is your response to the allegations against Chief Doyin
Okupe, and the argument that he lacked the moral basis to hold public
office because he failed to execute a particular contract in Benue State
years ago?
It is very interesting. I knew of a time when Obasanjo wanted to
physically assault him in the Presidency and there was a time in my
presence, when Chief Okupe was being warned by the National Security
Adviser, General Abdullahi Mohammed, that if he was not careful, he was
not only going to get him sacked, but was going to jail him. He had
described him in very tough words.
And if you know General Abdullahi Mohammed, he is very soft-spoken, a
gentleman of very few words. For Okupe to really get him so enraged to
respond in such a manner, it must have been a very serious offence. I
was not surprised when some months after, Okupe was publicly sacked.
Addressing the question, this again is the issue of Nigeria and the
PDP. There is no morality in their understanding of statecraft. Their
philosophy is “never get caught”. Once you don’t get caught, there is no
problem. That is the end of the story. If Okupe had kept his bloody
mouth shut, perhaps, he would have gotten away with what he did. And
many people perhaps, would have forgotten about it. This is one of those
things you forget, like bad debts in the bank, under the PDP.
But Okupe found new confidence in his new role as a hired ‘attack
dog” of the Presidency and the man who facilitated his getting that job
was Reuben Abati. Reuben was never in the public life, he has never won
an election and so he misadvised the president on that. But if the
president was serious, it would have been difficult for like Reuben to
mislead him.
And having misled him, and they were found out, Reuben should have
thrown him out of the window with Doyin. But typical of the PDP, nothing
is going to happen. Okupe will not be punished and that money will
never be recovered and the people of Benue will suffer the loss.
Another interesting development is that the governor, who gave Okupe
the contract, was then in the PDP and was a sitting governor of the
party. Now, that governor is with the ACN and he now knows both sides of
the equation. And that is why, for the first time in Okupe’s life, he
is learning to keep quiet because everybody knows his background on this
issue. But you did not need the latest scandal in Benue. There are, of
course, other scandals around that fellow. That such a fellow has now
gotten access to the president and is still working in the Presidency
is, to me, the biggest disgrace in the way we run government in this
country.
Different nationalities in Nigeria are on the march again for some
form of self-determination. The South-West wants regionalism, and
parliamentary system, some Northern states like Kano have coats of arm,
in fact, are tracing and warming up their family roots with Niger
Republic; the Ogonis are seeking self-determination just as
Bakassi
people wants independence. MOSSOP is making some noise, though they are
not yet ready for a bloody noise. Where will all these take us?
These calls are not original. They are not inherent in these people.
They are merely manifestations of a failed state and Nigeria is
definitely a failed state under President Jonathan. What these people
are saying is that they have had a raw deal. I am not sure about the
Yoruba demand for an Oduduwa Republic, I don’t know. But others, yes, I
have a feeling they have not been treated fairly by the Nigerian state.
In a democracy, they have a right to agitate.
For all I care, when the states were created in 1967, most of the
states had their own coats of arm. I remember General T. Y. Danjuma,
then Chief of Army Staff, speaking on behalf of the Supreme Military
Council, who said all these things should be swept aside and the idea of
any state having its own coat of arms was not ideal for federalism.
Now, the issues are coming back to light because politicians are looking
for issues to raise and then blackmail the Federal Government. If you
want to resolve the issue of people feeling alienated, do them justice.
As long as there are injustices, there will be this kind of demands. The
Ogoni secession thing is like a suicide. I think if they are determined
to commit suicide, good luck to them.
The MASSOB people are a little more sensible, even though I don’t
think they have been fairly treated, particularly by the police and the
security services. But for whatever reason, I certainly will never
support the idea of somebody creating trouble for other innocent people
to die. The Nigeria Civil War cost the Igbo at least one million lives. I
would hate to see a single soul killed in the name of agitation for
either Oduduwa Republic or another Ogoni Declaration. If they play it on
the pages of newspapers, fine. It may be fun, it may be a joke. But if
they start taking arms and the Nigeria state comes with the Federal
might to crush them, then they will have themselves to blame.
And I have no doubt in my mind that the one in the South West will
remain on the pages of newspapers. I don’t believe the South-West people
are serious, because if they start trouble and they have a head-on
collision with the Nigeria State, they have a lot at stake because they
are the most developed part of Nigeria. Lagos itself is 40 per cent of
the Nigerian economy, and our GDP. And if you want to really mess up
Lagos, just bomb one interception of the Third Mainland Bridge and the
whole economy of Lagos will come crashing. Secondly, the South West,
especially the Lagos economy, is not a productive economy. It is an
economy mostly based on currency speculation.
Compare Lagos with what is happening in the so-called Niger Delta,
especially Rivers, which is the most developed, you can see clearly that
these are the people bearing the brunt of the ecological problems and
this are the people enjoying the money and making noise about it.
The Sun