*’How they killed the PDP vision’
Chief Audu Ogbeh was the chairman of the Peoples
Democratic Party (PDP) during the Obasanjo regime. He left the office
following some disagreement with the then President Olusegun Obasanjo
and defected to the opposition Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN). In
this interview with BEN AGANDE, he speaks on some of the issues that
touch on his turbulent days as the PDP chairman and the state of the
nation. Excerpts:
What is your assessment of the political terrain especially in the last five years?
I think it is an environment of great opportunities but of also
opportunities lost and the usual high degree of waste which this country
has become notorious for. We have a situation which one finds
extremely disturbing because at the time former President Olusegun
Obasanjo left office, he left behind $25 billion in the excess crude
account.
I remember one night shortly after the late President Yar’Adua came
into office, the late Abubakar Rimi; myself; former Minister of the
FCT, Arc. Ibrahim Bunu and Wazirin Bauchi; went to see the late
president. He received us and we told him we came to suggest a few
things that we felt needed to be done so that we could begin to address
primarily the economic problems, because at the heart of all the chaos
in this country, of all the agitations and the discontent is the
economy. Nigeria has three problems: the economy, the economy and the
economy.
We can’t have a population growing this fast where there is so much
want and so much lack. Too many homes are in pains. Rents are
impossible, school fees are on the increase. You see tension on the face
of Nigerians wherever you meet them. We are a good and kind hearted
people. But now we are being driven in many areas to a state of
barbarism. Some of the horrible things people now do: kidnap children,
cut their heads off because everybody is looking for money including
people who call themselves men of God; at the centre of all the chaos
and political disequilibrium is the economy.
I am not an economist but economics is 90% common sense. I feel that
the polity is not comfortable and there is need for more practical down
to earth economic re-engineering. What are the issues? There is still
not enough production at home; too much importation of thoroughly
unnecessary items which we just ship in from all over the world. Nobody
makes pencils here for the over eighteen million children in primary
schools. We produce nothing. Bananas are coming in from Cameroun; even
garri from Benin Republic. At the centre of all the discontent in the
country is the economy and unless and until the people, state
governments, local governments got down to dealing with it, all the
tinkering, all the constitutional amendments would be all diversions.
In the face of all these, would you say that those at the
helm of affairs are adequately prepared or even competent to handle
these challenges?
I think they are doing their best but going back to what we said to
Yar’Adua that night, we suggested that there are some key areas that
will generate jobs. A society without work to do is in trouble. We said
to President Yar’Adua then that we should go into housing. At that time
they said seventeen million housing units were needed across the
country including universities. I went to Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria
where I had a room to myself. Not now. Why should our own children
degenerate under social and economic pressures to levels which are not
more than intellectual slums? Is it that we can’t do anything about it?
We suggested then that a million houses a year across the country
will create 30million jobs. We thought that the government would take a
loan from the excess crude account and start the houses and as it begins
to sell the houses through mortgages, it would start repaying the loan.
But the money was shared out to governors. How many of them applied the
money to the development of their states? Majority did not.
The government is addressing some issues but the speed needs to be
looked into and the question of examining the structural defects in the
economy should be looked into. We should also review the advice of the
IMF and the World Bank because I have never believed that the advice
they give is in the overall good interest of the country. I have not
seen any serious efforts by government at different levels to revive the
economy. Why can’t the governors sit down with those who have
industries in their states and ask them what they need to revive the
industriesit? If the treasury needs to help it should. America did. What
are we doing here? Some states are applying this philosophy by inviting
investors and providing the necessary infrastructure for them to
operate. The government at the centre and the state governments need to
sit down and keep doing this thing because we can’t have this pile of
pain sitting on the heads of our people. If it continues this way, no
matter what constitutional conference we hold, we will get no where.
Chief Audu Ogbeh
Some people have blamed the party you co-founded, the
PDP, for majorly responsible for the sorry state of affairs in the
country. Though you have left the party, looking back, do you think that
the party is responsible for the sorry state of things in the country?
I must say that the vision we had in forming the PDP is lost. It is lost
because certain individuals who came into the party and held certain
offices simply saw the party and treated it as a private estate. They
believed they owned the PDP. That was exactly what I could not stand.
With the connivance of many members, such pathetic sycophants could not
afford to say no to arrogant authority. A party is not owned by one
individual. When a party surrenders all its thinking and all the powers
to one person, the party is dead. We are a very peculiar people. We are
such sycophants; such cronies that nobody dare say anything.
If you are the only strong person around, you are just one more poor
person waiting to happen. There was no forum for the party to make
inputs into the polity, there was little reference to the manifesto and
no body was allowed to say anything even when things were going wrong.
Some of those killings that were happening in the PDP then: Bola Ige
went, Harry Marshal, Dikibo, Funsho Williams, later, my chairman in
Kwara who was butchered when he was coming to Abuja and so many strange
things. Nobody was allowed to raise the alarm. I was told that as party
chairman, I had no right to raise objections to certain developments
which I thought were simply outrageous. Some party members said I was a
poor man from Benue, so who was I to argue with the president? And I
told them if you wanted a billionaire to run the party, you should have
gone to Aliko Dangote or Mike Adenuga. If not being a rich man is an
offence then I am guilty as accused but I did not think that was the
function of the party chairman.
I don’t know today if that party has a forum where they can sit and
agonize over certain issues except maybe when the president calls the
governors together. The vision is lost and many left.
So, in order words, the feeling of many Nigerians that the problems in the country are caused by the PDP is correct.
Well it is the biggest party. It controls more states. It should be the
flagship. We built it to be strong but if it degenerates to just people
looking for offices for themselves and there is no collective anxiety
about the overall well-being of the people, then the party has failed!
There is no debate on issues. Has there been a debate on education? Has
there been a debate on agriculture? What is the debate on our foreign
policy? What is the policy on housing? There is no sound mortgage in
this country. In a nutshell, yes the blame is there. PDP is the biggest
party and therefore it cannot run away from those accusations.
There is the news going round that you are being wooed back to the PDP. Is this true?
Nobody has contacted me and I don’t think the problem in PDP is lack of
manpower. They are big, they have many people and I am sure if they want
to apply themselves to certain issues, they can do so. Calling people
back is not an issue. I don’t think anybody would listen to me any way
if I was to go back. I have been saying the same thing for the last ten
years. It is not important asking me to return or not to return.
Do you have a nostalgic feeling about your PDP days?
No I don’t have. Let me tell you this. I have always told people that
every politician should have a first address: the business you do. I
don’t like a man who says his profession is politician. Such a person in
a developing country is a liability. I have something I do. I am still
struggling to get it to where I want it to be because bank credit is
difficult to access. When I applied for a loan for commercial
agriculture scheme, I was turned down by my bank because they said I am a
politically exposed person. My priority now is to get my project to
where I want it to be not to be going here and there.
Corruption in the country is rather on the increase
rather than decreasing. Do you see a silver lining on the horizon in our
fight against corruption?
Honestly I share the anxiety of many Nigerians. We have ruined
everything. There is nothing you can do now in this country without
bribing. The judiciary has also experienced terrible turmoil. For many
of them judgments are purchased. The midnight currency is the dollars.
But when government tried to move against any one, the same society
begins to bring in sentiments. People either read religion, region or
tribe to every action of government in an attempt to curb corruption.
The situation is helpless and hopeless.
What do you think is the way forward?
First, there is the general need to get the economy going. I am not
sure that every Nigerian was born a thief. There are many Nigerians who
will not touch what does not belong to them if they have an option.
Secondly, it appears that we as a people are not determined to get rid
of corruption because we worship it too. We shout that corruption is bad
but we worship the corrupt. Thirdly people put a lot of pressure on
their leaders too. If you don’t give money, you are labeled a bad man
who does not want to help. It is a very complex moral enigma.
The duty of government is to look around the economy, decide what you
can produce and produce it. Others are doing it. Bank credit is still
impossible here. With all the reforms, this is the only country where
the interest rate is about 21%. How do you want any producer or investor
to survive this interest and still buy diesel? One prays that the power
sector keeps improving. That will eliminate one obstacle on the path of
production. A country that does not produce will die. We don’t
produce, so we all pounce on the treasury and rob the treasury. The
only industry left in the country now is politics and governance.
The issue of insecurity in the country has been
exacerbated by the Boko Haram attacks in the North. Do you have cause
for concern that with all these challenges, Nigeria may be at the
threshold of disintegration?
I am worried about the security situation and very concerned too. I
remember the talk I gave in Kaduna ten years ago that the Niger Delta
crisis will ease off but the chaos in Nigeria was going to come from the
North. I had foreseen this ten years ago and I had said it was going
to be driven by alienation, hunger and deprivation but was going to wear
the face of religion. I said emirs will not sleep peacefully in their
palaces and I said that some children will even be willing to kill their
parents to inherit any property they thought was available.
The other day I was talking with the governor of Borno State with
whom I do some work on agriculture for the state. The issue is simple.
What is it that drives people to such madness? Hunger! Of course
religious fanaticism is in many parts of the world. There are fanatics
who say their philosophy must be enforced by violence. But the
recruitment base of all of this extreme behavior is deprivation. There
are people who have no hope and if the extremist organization is going
to offer them a fee to do anything, they are willing to do.
They are easily brainwashed because they are so poorly fed that they
have little capacity to reason. We are so poorly fed in this country now
that we can’t do well in sports. The sportsmen and women come by and
large from very humble homes where the daily diet is eba, garri, eba.
They don’t have access to proteinous foods. So height for height, an
eighteen-year-old in Nigeria is slightly shorter than his counterpart in
Cameroun or Ivory Coast. But we don’t even realize that in an age that
demands the sharpest brains, because of the dietary problems we have and
the poor state of our agriculture, we are unable to produce some of the
finest minds we dream of.
Back to the state of insecurity, it is a frightening thing and the
answer is not in breaking up Nigeria. It is a bit tragic when at the
slightest provocation some Nigerians begin to talk about breaking up. It
is a sad thing that the elite are so fond of this thing. That is not
the concern of the man on the street. The man on the street is not
interested in this politics of balkanization. The elites who are the
most comfortable are the ones who raise it as an option. If you begin
the break up, how do you do it? I hear people talking of regions but is
there permanent peace in any region if there is no economic growth? Go
down to the local government or your village, there are issues over
which there are strong dissents. Go down to you village, people have
conflict if contentment is absent. We are too quick to rush to that idea
as a solution to our problems.
Having said that, of course violent conduct in one part of the
country leading to bombings and killings will disturb especially when it
looks selective. But even now you can see that Muslims and Christians
are getting killed and people wonder this is almost near madness. The
only real guarantee to near perfect security in any environment is the
contentment of the largest segment of the population.
Would you say that northern leaders including you have
done enough to re-orientate or refocus the energy of the youths from
the region?
We have not! The North must now look at itself in the mirror and ask
vital questions. Is it because for too long, we in the North have seen
politics as the only industry worth investing in especially since the
end of the first republic. There is too much interest in politics to the
exclusion of economic activities. Since the introduction of the
Structural Adjustment Programme, four hundred industries in Kano have
collapsed.
The textile industry perished dragging down with it some five million
families who were growing cotton. Agriculture is on the decline. The
average age of the farmer today is sixty to sixty five. There is not
enough intellectual input into agriculture and agro-processing. How many
new industries have been commissioned in any part of the North in the
last ten years? Is there any five-star hotel north of Abuja? There is
none. What do we invest in? We were in power. The South was not in power
at the political centre but they are miles ahead of us. When we have
somebody in power, there is this opium addiction that we have somebody
in power. What difference does it make if the man in the Villa is from
Katsina or Benue? Does that decide the feeding of the majority of his
villagers? I have been saying to the northern governors, you have been
meeting in Kaduna, how about zonal economic summits in the three zones
of the North? The president has made offers.
He wants to ban rice importation in 2015. If the South is the
industrial hub, why can’t the North be the agricultural machine? Why
producing less than seven million metric tons of maize? Why are we no
longer producing groundnuts? We now buy groundnuts from Niger Republic. I
am not objecting to a northerner being in the Villa, but for God’s
sake, politics alone can only further destroy the north and worsen
Nigeria’s social economic problem.
There have been sustained agitations by some section of the country
for the setting up of state police. Will this solve the problems of
insecurity in the country?
In a true federation, it is a fair thing to ask for. It makes sense
in true federalism for states to have control of their police machinery.
That is what is obtainable in the United States where we model our
democracy after. But in the USA, each state has a House of
Representatives, a Senate and a Supreme Court. That is how elaborate
their system is. Our state did not develop the way the states of the
United States of America developed. Ours were created through executive
fiat. It is logical for people to think of state police but, in
practice, I do not support it. Do you know why? I saw local government
and regional police forces in the first republic and I saw the abuse to
which they were put. I even see the abuse to which the federal police in
Nigeria is put from time to time, during elections especially. When I
was chairman of the PDP, there were times mobile police were deployed to
organize a fake sitting of the state House of Assembly at night to
impeach a governor. That was abuse of process and I said so then. The
Federal Government did not elect the governor. It is up to the people
through the assemblies to sanction the governor if he has done anything
wrong.
Assuming now that the federal police is seen as a tyranny or near
tyranny or a possible tyranny, we are going to create 36 tyrannies
across the country because they will be abused, terribly abused. And if
we do so now, it will not be three years before Nigerians begin to cry
out against the state police forces.
Finally, can we pay? I do not see any state that will have less than
three thousand police men. I don’t see any state needing less than
N500million extra per month to pay that police force. They need
uniforms, barracks, offices and other things. If the states are now
grumbling that they don’t have enough money to take care of education
and health, where will they get the money to pay the police? Why are we
so quick to recommend the creation of institutions without thinking of
the cost?
As I said before, the ultimate security any country can think of is
the contentment of the largest segment of the population. It is that
contentment that we should invest in now and not state police. Even now,
abuses are going on. In Jigawa State, A.C.N members are being detained
in Alkali courts without trial. Which governor will not do the same?
The governor names the Attorney General, he names the Chief Judge, appoints the chief of police.
Do you really think that if you are not on his side that police force
will listen to you in a country such as ours where sycophants and
poverty hold sway? When that police man knows that by doing the will of
the governor he will get extra cash? The demand for state police is a
very dangerous diversion and if they decide to go ahead with it, it will
not be two years before Nigerians will begin to cry out against the
horror that would be placed on their lives. And let me tell those
governors clamouring for it that it is not a priority.
Let me also tell the federal police that it also need to reform. The
Inspector General of Police should be strong enough to tell the
president that the police force is not an instrument in the hand of the
Federal Government or any body but an instrument for the enforcement of
justice and fair play. Unfortunately, most IGPs see them selves as
appointees of the president so they get involved in rigging elections.
Do you share the sentiment being expressed that the North should produce the president in 2015?
Sentiment is there and every society has its own sentiment. In fairness,
there is reason for some balancing. There is logic in it. You can’t
keep on having one segment of the country dominating the others. People
object to that. It is a fair thing. Over the years, this anxiety almost
reached a fever point when Abiola won the election which was annulled.
We have to commend the Yorubas for not pushing it to the extreme because
they had every reason to do so. Thank God we got over it.
In 1994, I was a member of the Constitutional Conference and we began
this debate among the northern group about keeping away from contesting
the election. It took years and some of these meetings were very
heated which was why in 1999 there was no northern candidate for
president in any of the political parties. People forget so easily that
it was not imposed on us. It was resolved here in Abuja. It was a mature
move by the North and people must recognize that.
Towards the middle of Obasanjo’s tenure, I chaired a meeting where we
said eight years North, eight years South and I put it to vote and it
was carried 57 to 2 in favour of eight years between the North and the
South. I left the PDP after that and the thinking changed. Even if
things changed, they should have sat down to resolve the matter by
bringing reasons. It did not need to degenerate to the extent it went.
It could have been done through concession with the agreement to look at
it all over again.
Having said all that, yes there is agitation that it should go to the
North, the South-east is also clamouring. Again it can be debated and
discussed but whatever we do should be through dialogue and
understanding and not for one group to say we have seized it, what can
you do about it? The essence of democracy is dialogue, dispute
resolution and sensitivity to each other’s feeling. Nobody should feel
superior to the other. There is some logic to it. The northerners should
not be made to feel that because the seat has gone South no northerner
will ever sit there again. I heard that was the declaration of a
certain political leader in his venom against the North. Such a language
is irresponsible. Let the parties sit down and debate it. Whatever we
do, the elite must not set Nigeria on fire.
Vanguard