‘How Nigeria can prevent disintegration’

By Emmanuel Oladesu.

• Akinrinade

Former Chief of Defence Staff General Alani Akinrinade (rtd) spoke with Deputy Political Editor EMMANUEL OLADESU on national security, Southwest integration, national conference and other issues.

What is your reaction to the agitations for a national conference in the country?
We need to debate, discuss what is really going on in our country. A lot of information has been dished out from all sections of the country, some panacea to problems bedeviling the country. Yoruba has always been in the leadership in this kind of situation. We have always made it clear that we want to be part of Nigeria, we want a very strong country, and we need to fashion out how we can make that strong country come about.
We realise that the Igbo in the East are talking, Southsouth people, especially the Ijaw Congress, are talking and bringing out ideas. Now, the northerners are also talking and bringing out ideas and accepting that this is not a great federation, and that, if we are not careful, we are dancing on the brink, according to Cambell, and therefore, we should do something.  Yoruba, since 2005, made a major contribution to this debate by meeting in Ibadan. We got a Yoruba Agenda for Nigeria at that time. It spelt out the way the Yoruba saw Nigeria and what ought to be done to make sure that it becomes a strong country that works, like a nation, not an amorphorous country, a big country, almost a giant as you call it, having a clay feet. We brought out that document in 2005, hoping there was going to be a genuine conference as stated by Obasanjo at that time. That position today is still valid, except there are some issues which we raised at that time. That time, the memory of the June 12 debacle was still fresh in our memory and in 1999, certainly, Yoruba did not participate well in the elections, simply because the issues that preceded the elections were never touched. Yoruba thought that an attempt to ignore the issues by saying that democracy is the answer by just having elections, even if it was a good election, was not a good way of building a good nation. We played along simply because there was no other way of doing it. May be, we were wrong. May be, we were right. We played along and the end result is what we have today. 
Why is national debate necessary at this time in Nigeria?
The foundation was wrong. We should be courageous enough to dismantle the foundation, make a new foundation and strive to build earnestly  on it. That is the meeting we are meeting.
What are those unresolved national questions which tend to make Yoruba uncomfortable under the fragile and lopsided federal arrangement?
There are mirage of problems. All of us seem to agree that it started right from the beginning of trying to couple together a country. It looks like the French were coming from the west and Germans coming from east and the British stopped them and gave them a territory. The north was administered separately, the south administered separately, Lagos administered separately. Everything was like an afterthought. They forcefully put us together and amalgamated us and called us Nigeria. They made mess of the organisations in that territories and now we are inheritors of the problem. The sad part of it is that, over the years, we sat down there suffering. We didn’t have the courage to say that this would not work, let us sit down and talk. The closest we got to that was at the beginning with Sadauna talking about differences and Awolowo saying that it is a set of nations coupled together; it is just a country, not a nation. I can’t remember Azikiwe’s position. But at least, there were some of our leaders who knew that, certainly, something was basically wrong with the way we were put together. Till tomorrow, it is not going to be possible for a country of over 150 million people to go to the United Nations and have one seat, have no language of their own to speak there, when the rest of the world have their languages being translated. That is what they do for Portugal, which is less than two states in this place. We shortchange ourselves. We have Yoruba, over 40 million; we have Hausa/Fulani, Igbo. They are bigger than 40 other countries in the world. We don’t have a language which the world can recognise in writing, in speaking, in drama. And we expect that we are going to build a nation? I doubt it.
Recently, Yoruba self-determination groups advocated the restructuring of Nigeria into 18 federating unions. Is that part of the agenda you are going to discuss?
Many organisations have their own ideas. I have been dealing with the Ijaw Congress for long and I know they have their ideas about how Nigeria should be restructured. The Ibos have their ideas. I visited Dim Odumegwu-Ojukwu many times. We discussed nothing but Nigeria. So do Yoruba. What I know is that in Yorubaland, we are not going to sleep and put our heads on one side. We will hold robust discussions before we make major decisions. Some are talking about 18, others about six zones. Those are the issues we must look at rationally and see the one that will work. That is what Yoruba will bring up as a proposal to the table, ready to defend it and ready to compromise, if people bring out better and more workable solutions. Yoruba will accept good argument. I don’t know the number that will come at the end, but I think it will be nice for Yoruba to have whatever you want to call it now, whether it is state, or region, or whatever; to agree among themselves how to arrange it a way that every facet of Yoruba power will be projected in a way that will work for all of us. Of course, we will encourage others; Ijaw, Ibos and others; to try to do the same among themselves. Then, we will all agree at the centre where we relate and call ourselves Nigeria or whatever new name they give it, what we have to be doing together and how we have to be doing it. But what we have now, which is a do-or-die affair, that a Yoruba man should be President so that Yoruba can lord it over others, or Ijaw or Ibos, is not good. We are going to a dangerous crossroads now where Ibos think it is their turn, because it is turn by turn now, where Jonathan said he is entitled to eight years, where the northerners are saying, wait a minute, how long are you going to keep us out of this. It should never be like that. We should have a situation where we will have the best person who will move us forward, whether he is from the minority tribe or not. But we should try to create a situation where it is not a winner-takes-all affair. No country ever gets up into reckoning under that situation. You talk about unity in diversity and you start asking people to level down, to lower the bar all the time. Look at education today. It is the lowering of the bar that got us where we are today. 
Are the elite across the zones ready for national debate?
There is an indication that virtually everyone, including those who said that the situation was good, are saying that it is enough and that we should really sit down and talk. Ango Abdullahi was the last one. I was fairly shocked when I read his interview. These are the people who would think that it is the way we run our government that is wrong, that it is the people that have problem, not the system. Some of us have argued that it is the system itself that is the beginning of the trouble. Now, they are coming to that idea right now. Some say the Southsouth is asking for what is too much. It is when we sit down across the table to discuss that we will be able to look rationally at all these demands. I have a good idea that, with or without the government, the people are likely to sit down to talk. We are really on the brink now, unless we are deceiving ourselves. We always deceive ourselves that we will get out of the dilemma, that we created the problem and that it will blow away. It does not seem to be blowing away at all. 
What is your reaction to the menace of Boko Haram?
I am scared when I see people writing and talking about what government should do about Boko Haram. It is historical. In the military, we know that when this type of problem starts, it is a problem. We say rebels with a cause. You better don’t sleep. You better take it very seriously. They may be like a rag tag army now, but a rag tag army that is killing seven people, 10 people at a time, it is no more a rag tag. What is the real problem? They are talking about poverty, nature of our polity, people recruiting thugs and abandoning them. Meanwhile, Boko Haram is talking about religion and we are dismissing it. The religious aspect of it is not what we can really throw away. I think we really have to find a time when we are going to sit at the table and talk to the handlers of Boko Haram and the people who live with them and explain to them that this is a sect that is embedded in the society. And that is always the beginning of guerilla warfare. They are getting themselves into a place where people will respect them, fear them and where they can do whatever they like. It takes years to do it. And this has been going on for some time. When they finally do that, they will then become urban guerilla and the rest of us are in problem. The urban guerilla does not want to take over government. He just does not want the rest of us to sleep. It is as simple as that. You won’t be able to walk into the supermarket with confidence. You will not enter train with confidence or aircraft with confidence because somebody can blow things off. You don’t have to offend him. We are all enemies. I don’t know what is happening in Abuja and how many people are meeting and looking at these things. This is not a matter you look at militarily alone, you look at it politically. You have to go back to history to look at how these matters were dealt with. Don’t forget about IRA. Prime Ministers would say, you don’t talk to rebels, terrorists, until the burnt and destroyed important places. They blew up the airport, part of the airport. These things were happening in Ireland. It took them more than twenty years to do that. London was not comfortable. So, we don’t have that luxury at all. We just have to find an answer to it.
Some people are calling for the break up of the country...
When people are frustrated, they say all sorts of things, but we don’t want Nigeria to break up. But we don’t want Yoruba to be parasitic. They say bigger tribes are oppressing other smaller tribes. Yoruba is a big tribe. Then, they think Yoruba is a culprit. That does not mean that we should go ahead and break the country. Bu honestly, if we are not careful, it might be worse than a break up. Ango says they can look after themselves as northerners. It is very true. There is no part of this country that cannot look after itself. What has happened was that somebody spoilt us by putting oil money on the table all the times and people go there and collect. And we run a deficit budget. Can you believe that this last budget had over N1 trillion deficit? Meanwhile, in a spate of three months, they had located over N1 trillion looted by a few people; permanent secretaries, parastatal bosses, politicians. Why running a deficit budget when trillions are in private pockets illegally in their bedrooms? This system is killing the country. It is our duty to get together and salvage it. Some people are fed up with it that they will not want to hear the name Nigeria. If you present your passport to an immigration officer in any country, including Ghana, he looks at you and thinks that it is from Oluwole. That is how big we are in the world.
What are Yoruba leaders doing about the Yoruba language that is dying?
We have a Yoruba Academy, thanks to the younger people who have that dream to resuscitate the language. We have not forced ourselves to use the language. The constitution does not prevent us, our lawmakers from using the language in our region, in their discussions, debates, or even producing Yoruba Hansard, which we might translate into English for other people to understand. It does not prevent us from using it in our schools. I think it is a psychological problem that we have. We just have to work at it. 
 I know that, within the Yoruba hierarchy, people are torched by the possibility that our language, our culture, our tradition, some of the things we inherited, especially our prowess in education, are beginning to fizzle away under their watch. If we are let on our own and we don’t have this oil money coming every month, or week, and we have to rely on our own strength the way we did before, people are going to get sober and make sacrifice. How can I get N3million a month and i will be sober? It is not very likely. That is what is going on everywhere. The councillor that represents me in my village earns a bigger salary than the principal of the Anglican Grammar School that is in the front of my house. That school has 2,000 kids, JSS and SSS. The wife of the councillor, the first lady, earns more than the principal. That is madness. In that council, we have people who can represent us without taking salary and make more impact on the lives of villagers more than the councillor who did not pass his school certificate exams. It is all over Nigeria. When there is no money to maintain thugs, there will be no thug.
Is Yoruba integration a minus to national integration?
I am happy to be a Yoruba man  because we are always forward looking. We try hard to tackle problem before it becomes very knotty. People who live in contiguous villages talk with each other and think about how to benefit one another, share water and resources. It is better than to do things individually. That is not Yoruba way of doing things. I think it is a precursor of what should be happening in other regions and eventually the country. It is in our interest to integrate through infrastructural development. 
Election is holding in 2015 and Americans are warning that it may also be a year of Armageddon for Nigeria. What is your reaction?
I read Cambell and saw the report. If we are honest people, does somebody has to warn us from America? We can see it ourselves. It is coming. It is staring us in the face. What facet of our life does not point to disintegration? Is it the economy, politics, cultural standing? Are we holding the rightful position in the world? Do we get respect in the world? We just contested in the World Bank. I was laughing at our stupidity.