By Shola Oshunkeye
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Bakare
• Photo: The Sun Publishing |
Yet, many others hate him with a passion, especially those who find themselves on the sharp edge of his tongue. Since the national strike and mass protests that trailed the January 1, 2012 imposition of a strangulating price regime for premium motor spirit, or petrol, the Pastor’s approval rating has soared in the estimation of majority of his admirers.
But he has also drawn flaks from those who felt he was too hard on the administration of President Goodluck Jonathan, saying he used intemperate and inelegant words in making his points at the mammoth rallies at Gani Fawehinmi Park, otherwise known as Freedom Park, in Ojota, Lagos.
When the fearless cleric-cum-politician sat down with me, last week, he addressed all the points of criticism one-by-one, saying he stood by every word that proceeded out of his mouth during the subsidy impasse. While tackling his traducers and President Jonathan afresh on some of the issues, he restated his belief in the indivisibility of the Nigerian nation, declaring that we are better staying together as one nation under God.
“The issue of our unity should not be in anybody’s mind that we don’t need ourselves,” he counseled. “Which of the federating units can stand alone now? …
For instance, I was born in Abeokuta, raised in the north; I was a Muslim, I became a Christian afterwards. You think I will ever hold a gun to shoot a Muslim or a Christian? That would be insanity. You think I will ever think evil of any of my Muslim brothers and sisters? I have very many friends among them. We are married from there and they are married from here. Let us apply some wisdom here. If something is wrong, let us locate the root of it and deal with it. Let us not throw away the baby with the bath water. I think that was what General Ibrahim Babangida was counseling. If we play into the hands of those who are working tirelessly for the disintegration of Nigeria, Nigeria will suffer for it.”
If you permit the cliché, that is just a tip of the iceberg. Please, sit back, relax and enjoy the exclusive interview, which took place at the conference room of the Save Nigeria Group in Ikeja GRA, Lagos.
Excerpts:
Let’s start by doing a post-mortem of the fuel subsidy strike nationwide protest. Was the Save Nigeria Group satisfied with the way it was suspended?
SNG cannot be satisfied. In fact, it is not about being satisfied because we set clear objectives before we embarked on the strike. And the objectives were not just based on N65 or not. The objective was let us go to the root of our national problems: namely endemic corruption in high and low places. Someone said Nigerian officials are not just corrupt, corruption has become official in Nigeria. That is an indictment. It started trickling from the helm of government, into all arms of government, and it has affected the entire society, eating deep into the fabric of our officials. In other words, kill corruption and Nigeria will be saved.
That’s the message.
Now, why are we saying that? Do not go back to 12 years of misgovernment and misrule of the PDP led-government from 1999; don’t even consider the budgetary allocations of those years because they need to be brought to book. Every year, there were budgetary allocations in billions and trillions. What did they do with those allocations that we can see in terms of educational advancement, in terms of infrastructural development, in terms of enabling environment that would cause job creation for the teaming jobless youths or that will encourage industrialists to bring our country up to a productive country rather than just consumers?
I do not even want to mention power or electricity that a whole Bola Ige said he would turn around within six months while he was minister of power and steel. And with all the budgetary allocations and all the importation that they brought into this country, nothing has happened. Instead of increasing, power supply is decreasing by the day. Whatever affected these budgetary allocations now culminated in the build-up to the elections that they needed excess funds; they needed money like water. They opened the Central Bank taps and defrauded this nation.
They know what they did with what they call oil subsidy. The trillions were spread to their province to give it back to them to buy Nigerian votes and voters; and we are in this mess today. That is the issue. They wanted the subsidy to be removed at all cost because there will be no way to explain it in the next year if subsidy that they paid in 2011 will not drop drastically in 2012. That’s what they are trying to cover up. I challenge anyone to say anything to the contrary.
Someone in the industry told me that it is not as if marketers, important stakeholders and some members of the society are against fuel subsidy. They said the only group that is against subsidy removal is NNPC that feeds fat on corruption and proceeds of corruption.
(Cuts in…) Let’s be honest with ourselves. What exactly does the Nigerian populace mean? I don’t like the word ‘ordinary Nigerians’. That is arrogant. Each time I hear such words, I feel like slapping that individual. Should Mr. president use the language? A guy that told us he had no shoes? How people quickly forget where they came from. The Nigerian populace derives no benefit from a PDP-led government other than this subsidy. What are you giving to them in terms of healthcare delivery, roads, goods and services? You have now imported 1, 600 buses to put on what road?
Even SNG is not against the deregulation of the downstream sector of oil industry. But you cannot put the cart before the horse. Every right-thinking Nigerian has seen the benefits of deregulation, at least in the telecom sector. Once upon a time, SIM card was N22, 000. Today, they are giving it out free because they want people to be on their own network. Before there will be deregulation proper, there must be the Petroleum Industry Act.
That is the enabling instrument. Why are you talking of deregulation where there is no enabling legislation? There is no law in existence for it. Besides that, what are the safety nets you have put in place? If you want to give people soft landing, you should put some cushion on the ground to fall on, not on hard concrete like it was done on January 1. Now, this is not only atrocious, it is also wicked. Very wicked. And I quoted scriptures (at the oil subsidy mass rallies, and they said I was cursing him. “I said the curse of the Lord is upon the wicked.” Who is a wicked man? A wicked man is one who deprives the poor of his means of livelihood.
Apart from the scriptures you quoted, there were allegations that you out-rightly cursed the president by saying that he will end up the way Abacha did…
(Cuts…) Let us take the tape and play it back. I said where are people in the past who were larger than life? Where is Abacha today? Where is Yar’Adua who made you his deputy? Remember tomorrow. That’s all. It’s just for him to wake up and reason. And nobody else has put it better than Professor Niyi Osundare. In an interview he just granted (The News magazine, upper week), he said, “now we know the meek-looking, God-fearing Dr. Jonathan is capable of callous, ungodly tactics, the mask has fallen off his face.” It will take a wicked man to do what he did. I stand by it.
They said that as a man of God, you should have tempered your language…
Those who are saying that don’t understand the temperament of a prophet. They (prophets) are not loose talkers but they call a spade, a spade. Jesus is my model. Is that a tempered message when they told Jesus that Herod was looking for him and he said, ‘tell that fox…’ How tempered is that? How tempered is the Prophet Elijah standing before a whole king and said ‘you and your father’s house are the troublers of Israel’.
How tempered is the John the Baptist, at the first baptismal service, the leaders and the Pharisees came and he said ‘you brood of vipers…’ Let’s call a spade a spade. It’s not about the language but you give it to them the way they deserve it-good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over. When they do good, we’ll sing their praises to high heavens; when they do evil, we’ll let them also know.
Do you feel comfortable that some members of your constituency, the clergy, actually called me, after I wrote a column in your defence, and said all kinds of things about you, that you were not speaking the mind of God, speaking like you did at Ojota?
Let us find out what they spoke and we can put it side by side. If I didn’t speak the mind of God, what did God say to them? One person cooks and does not have meat in it, but his children still has something to eat. But you who did not cook anything is condemning the man for not putting meat? Yes, in a moment of extreme passion, you must still show the character, the finesse and the meekness of the law. But don’t forget, the lamb is also a lion and lions don’t have table manners.
It depends on who or what part of him he is manifesting at that time. If he is a lamb, he is meek and gentle; if he is a lion, you will be hearing ‘woe unto you.’ It is a whole chapter of ‘woe unto you to the Sadducees and the Pharisees’, and they were spoken by the Lord Himself. The tender part of God must not be confused and mistaken as the only way God operates because He is also tough. He is a man of war. What they saw in Ojota was war. That is not a time to use ‘Your Excellency.’
So, based on these, are you saying you don’t regret what you said at Gani Fawehinmi Park? And that there is no basis to recant?
Quote me: No regret. No recanting. No retreat. No surrender.
First, I expressed myself to the best of my ability to let the leadership in the nation know what they are doing to us, the people.
How do you manage your precarious position in your church as a preacher and a politician?
I have never been one of the politicians. I’ve always been a preacher. And for me, every assignment I am given by God, to serve God and my generation, still stems from the standpoint of who I am in God. He knew me; He saw me before He saved me. Listen, it was not even the head of the country that Paul in Acts of Apostle was addressing. The high priest ordered him to be slapped and Paul said wild white sepulchre. And they said, do you revere him as a high priest? And he said ‘I don’t recognise him as a high priest’. Would you fold your hands against a robber, who barges into your home, and he pretends to be your friend, and who is raping your daughters? What language would you speak?
Definitely, I can’t say ‘God bless you…’
Exactly. That is how I feel. I feel sad and mad at the rape of our country by these people. I can feel the people’s wrath. Yet, Mr. President started with the arrogant language “I am ready for mass revolt (rather than allow subsidy to continue)”. People have forgotten he said so. And on January 1, 2012, he slapped the people. Even some of the ministers were saying they were not consulted. He thought he had every man under his rule. But no, there are some exceptions to the rule.
The reason I asked the question about how you felt in your dual role as a pastor and politician is that in a congregation that is as large as yours, you cannot have a monolithic congregation in terms of political ideology.
Yes. I’ve never asked anyone in that church to join any particular party or vote for any candidate. They are free to vote for anybody. There are people in Latter Rain Assembly who did not vote for me. There are people there who voted for Jonathan. That will never offend me. That is their fundamental human right. My freedom stops where theirs begins, and vice versa.
To expect them to just vote for me and just do what I say means they have been manipulated or hypnotized. They have a moral base to choose according to the conscience. They have their own minds. I remember an occasion, in that same church, when someone tried to come and talk about General Buhari, they shouted the person down. And what I said was: ‘Kudos to you all, I taught you well. You must be free to express yourself at all times’. The records are there, go and check. I said this not secretly but in the open. I never canvassed for any of them to support this course.
See, Elijah was a one-man army. People forget. When you are called into prophetic ministry or you are given the opportunity to meet the people, you are to serve them according to the will of God or teach them according to the word of God. Not according to your own personal opinion. Elijah was a one-man army. He was not waiting for the congregation to clap for him. They confuse priesthood. This is the problem of the church in Nigeria. The priesthood of Aaron, which is called Aaronic Priesthood, is one with garment and Bishopric and, with apology to a man of God by name of Bishop Kalejaiye who led the protest in Ekiti. Is Bishop Kalejaiye not a man of God? And he belongs to the Anglican fold. I’m waiting for them to remove him because they said nobody in their fold could do that. I’m waiting to see whether you stop being a Nigerian because you are now a pastor.
But we didn’t do what we did to attract attention or to become popular. The truth of the matter is our priesthood is not that of Aaron, our priesthood after the order Melchizedek; and to operate in that priesthood, you have to be a king. It is not the other way round. Rulership and governance must be upon your shoulder. You must understand what is going on. Melchizedek was a king and a priest. And Jesus said He has made us kings and priests to our God and we shall rule on the earth.
I did not seek any electoral thing, I was invited as one who could contribute to be a running mate. I’ve never stood for any election in Nigeria; I served as a running mate and I have no regrets, no apologies because God called those in government His ministers. It’s because we have left it for the wicked to continue that we are suffering now. When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice. What do you say of David who wrote almost the entirety of the Psalms, a man after God’s heart? He was a priest, a prophet and a king.
I heard some people say, ‘Why did you join a Muslim? Why didn’t you even look for a Christian?’ They don’t even understand that neither Islam nor Christianity is a religion started by God. God is interested in relationship with Him and not religion. Jesus did not come to the earth to start a religion. As Webster said, religion is nothing but return to bondage. It is different from a relationship with God and operating with fear of God and understanding that you can’t actually love God except you love your neighbour. When they say some things, I said that I forgot that Nebuchadnezzar was an apostle when Daniel served him.
They’ve forgotten that God has a way of turning the heart of Kings and He will position people like Esther, Joseph, Daniel, Nehemiah in order to change society and to turn history in a particular course that God has mapped out for it. We have no regret for what we are doing and we will do it again and again, God granting us grace.
I wonder how you felt when there were reports, during the protests, that your group was canvassing regime change. And the insinuation that the whole protest had been hijacked by failed politicians?
Again, I’ll say is this: opinions are like noses, everybody has it but they all look different. If they say we are failed politicians and we made so much impact that made them send in soldiers, then, we know the real meaning of failure. If we are failed politicians and we made such impact that shook the nation to its foundation, we know those who have failed the nation. I don’t want to respond to idiotic statements. If I was a failed politician, time will tell.
As for the regime change, let us ask: what is evil in a citizen asking for a regime change? In Section 14 subsection 2 of the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, sovereignty resides in the people of the country and if they give it to anybody, it is to serve their interest, welfare and security. And if you are now denying them what they gave you the right for, they are entitled to demand for a regime change.
Even when the regime has not run its course?
I will address this regime change from three different angles. There are those who think what happened in Ojota was an Arab Spring that was coming to Nigeria. And I said, the last time I checked, there are not too many Arabs in Nigeria to give us an Arab Spring against dictators who have ruled their countries and almost running their countries for 30 or more years. What was happening was like what happened in Italy, Spain and Greece. Did it not lead to regime change? When people were badly affected by policies that affected their finance and livelihood, they rose up and regime change took place within the government. We are not asking that you give the power to another person outside the government. That is one.
Two, if regime change is evil, why did Jonathan and his government spearhead the government change in Burkina Faso? If regime change is evil, why was Jonathan and the Nigerian government the first to acknowledge what happened in Libya? So, what is good for the goose is no longer good for the gander? Now, leave that aside. Let’s now come to practical things. Now, what did I say? All I said was that to have voted N240 billion for subsidy and to have gone beyond that to have now spent N1.7trillion, which is now over two trillion, without appropriation, is an impeachable offence and the senate should look into it. But that I don’t expect so much from this senate because they also are legislooters and not legislators.
What gives them the right to perform executive function by increasing the budget every time it affects them? The executive is to prepare the budget, you are to look at it, amend it or reject it. There is nothing in our law that says you should increase the budget. But every time they have increased the budget, it is to take care of them and their constituency allowances. Are they contractors? The constituency you came from, is it not part of a state that the executive government of that state is receiving budgetary allocations to execute different programmes and projects? Why are you getting double pay? Did you see that the person who presided over the talk between labour and the government is David Mark? Is that legislative function?
They all want to cover themselves. We have a government of Ali Baba and the 40 thieves. That is all that is happening in our nation. Because, the House of Representatives passed a motion, the Senate also passed a motion, that the government should reverse the petroleum price to status quo. Which means they were not consulted. It was an executive fiat. Let’s say the executive has the authority to do that. But the legislative arm of government said ‘reverse to status quo’, and the president said it’s a mere expression of opinion, and it is not binding on him. What is that? What is government doing without checks and balances? That’s why I call them Ali Baba and the 40 thieves. There is no future for Nigeria with this government.
Do you feel betrayed by Labour?
Labour did not betray me because I did not enter into any agreement with Labour. Labour called for strike, we called for protests. They can’t betray me, they betrayed themselves.
How did they betray themselves?
Because their word is not good for the Nigerian citizen any more. They said ‘on N65 we stand’. They said ‘We can negotiate after you have reversed to N65’. If they had maintained that, they will be men of honour.
But how would they have sustained the strike beyond that first week bearing in mind that Nigerians are not too patient?
Did Nigerians cry to say they didn’t want the strike any more? In my home- town, they say ‘pata pata laa foju, a fo o fo tan oju, ija ni nda le’ (transliterated, it means: if you want to go blind, go totally blind. Partial blindness causes confusion). …Now, the whole nation is saying they were bribed and they have to come out to refute it. We are hearing some people say it is $34million while some say it is $12million. Some said they heard the president talking to Obasanjo, telling him how much he had given them. I am not interested in those things but had they behaved in a particular pattern that those before them had behaved? We know the stand of the Edo State governor on this issue. When he was leaving, he put his own stooges there to continue what they were doing. This is my personal opinion. And I want them to refute it.
Government always consults labour before they fix any price. What happened in Nigeria on January1, 2012, was not deregulation, it was fuel price hike. The truth of what happened is that they needed money to task Nigerians primitively to recoup the spending that happened during the last general elections. So, what they normally would do is to call labour, tell them there is no money to continue to run government and that they are in trouble. ‘We want to increase fuel price, that is the only way they can make some money.’ And Labour would ask, ‘how much would you want’? They would say, ‘we are thinking between N97 and N100. So, strike from N141, we would give you your share, then, we would reduce it to N97.’ That’s what happened. Let them refute it that it is not so.
But can you prove this?
I can’t prove it. But no labour strike has lasted three days. It’s because the political organisation and the civil society organisations of Nigeria rose up this time to be in charge of the protest and not the strike. And if they had wanted to test the strength of Nigerians, they should not have put the military there. We are sensible not to create mayhem in our nation and we don’t want the limited infrastructure that we have to be further destroyed. That’s why we did not confront them. And we knew it’s a question of time, they will roll out their tanks and live will continue. But have we stopped there, despite their tanks? Have the agitations stopped? No.
A government must responsible and responsive.
Many people went to town when I said the president does not appear to think deeply before he talks. That he should sit back, call all people of goodwill. I’m not asking that he must consult the entire country. But in issues like this, the legislative arm said no; the whole nation said no. And he pretended as if he was still consulting and you gave the impression that the subsidy cannot even be removed until April. If all the things that need to be in place had been in place, namely, an enabling legislation, a safety net that will not rip the life off the poor, I will be one of the people that will carry placards saying we should not continue to support the fat cows in the oil industry. Let’s truly deregulate.
But is this truly deregulation? This is pauperization. This is ripping the life of the poor full scale. They just oppress the poor further. A poor man, who oppresses the poor, is a driving ring that leaves no foot behind. That’s what the scripture says. Jonathan, once a poor boy who had no shoes, and once he became president, quickly forgot his background. We need to remind him. So, how do we turn the page?
Simple, go back to N65. You think Nigerians are buying your N97 fuel? How many stations are selling? How many Nigerians are patronizing them? People are now buying quarter tank, half tank and they are only going to where necessary. You will still not get the sales you are expecting. And please, this government that was so totally arrogant, why did they back down from their high horse and say N97?
And now, let us now take the difference between N65 and N97 and multiply it by the 35 million litres; and let us just assume that all the citizens, not just a few, are going to consume it and see if you will still have enough money to run the economy, because you have created a big hole that cannot be filled by hypocrisy. The government tried to use deregulation and the fat cows in the oil industry as a camouflage, and it reminds me of Webster’s definition of hypocrisy. Webster says a hypocrite is a lion who killed both his parents and when he was about to be sentenced, he said the court should have mercy on him because he is now an orphan. Jonathan has shot himself on his foot. He became extremely arrogant when he said he was ready for mass revolt. How far can he go? He needs to go back to the basis of humility, responsibility and responsiveness to the yearning and aspirations of those who allegedly voted him.
Everybody seems to agree that corruption is the bane of leadership, and economic progress in Nigeria. Do you consider padding of national budgets by the legislature, as you said earlier, is the foundation of corruption in Nigeria?
Behind legislative responsibilities, we need to go back to three major issues, as far as I am concerned. Address the issue of nationhood. And what I’m trying to point out there is federalism in Nigeria has been completely militarized. That’s what gives the executive the power to just wake up one morning and do what they will without even consulting the governors. We need to establish a true federal structure so that the federating units will not only be waiting upon the federal government for monthly allocations to do projects and programmes; and boosting internally generated funds, not only through tax agents but by doing what the regions did in the past.
Secondly, we have a bloated government in Nigeria. I don’t know how far it is true that the last presidential trip caused so many problems about how many people went with Mr. President and Mrs. President. Now, we have 50 ministries, and there is nothing to show for them. Our constitution aids and abates those things by saying a minister must emerge for them but it does not say what the minister will do. So, if they are just there and the constitution does not say they must be paid so much, and are not paid as much as they currently earn, government would be less attractive to the hawks. Only those who truly want to serve would go into government because it would have become so unattractive.
You can check my record at Latter Rain Assembly; it’s not an empty boat. I do not preach forbiddingly. My hands, like Paul’s, provided for my necessities. There would be a drastic reduction in the level of corruption and corrupt tendencies in this country if those who go into government were those who are accomplished in their chosen professions in the society. They are only there to serve the people and are only paid minimum allowances.
The biggest moneymaking venture today in our country is politics. The second is religion. And that’s why you find the two of them co-operating and collaborating. Key players of CAN (Christian Association of Nigeria) and PFN (the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria) must do the bidding of the government because they know they have to wear a long gold chain in order to lead people to Jerusalem or Mecca and Medina at the expense of the state. Why are we sending people on pilgrimage? Is Nigeria not a secular state?
Nigeria, constitutionally, does not identify with any particular religion. So, why do you need to send people on pilgrimage? It is a personal thing. Each citizen can go on pilgrimage to Rome or Jerusalem if he so wishes and is ready to foot the bill, not government doing Father Christmas. I have tourist sites in Abeokuta, my hometown, that they can come and I will tell them the story of our forefathers. But they won’t let them come. Rather, you will find these people with long chains, leading them to Jerusalem, to Mecca and Medina, wasting resources.
Again, we need to define who we are. Are we a republic or a federal republic or a kingdom? Every time, you will see Edwin Clarke running to the Ooni of Ife, saying the south-south are meeting with south-west. This is nonsense. We are neither a kingdom nor a republic nor a federation. So, if they say Nigeria, it has no meaning. So, we need to sit down around the table of brotherhood, and restructure this country. We need a people’s constitution. We need to decrease and deflate and cut to size our bloated government and officials. The cost of governance is punitive upon the people. We must remember that this was what led to some crises somewhere in the bible. A constitution that cannot bend will break. I pray that Nigeria will remain united and we will be able to jaw-jaw and not war-war because together we will serve ourselves and our people better than fighting and shooting ourselves.
You have just prayed that Nigeria will remain united; and that reminds me of General Ibrahim Babangida, who, at a recent leadership forum organized by the Daily Trust newspaper, said the issue of Nigeria staying together is ‘a given’, it’s to be taken for granted. And somebody replied him and said, if he lives in a house, and the house is constantly hot, and it’s always on fire, and he is deprived of basic necessities, he (the respondent) has the option to get out of the house. So, he says people should not say that the issue of Nigeria staying together is settled. But from what you have just said, it is like you are on the same page with General Babangida on this issue.
Maybe, but, with a slight amendment. The man who says if he stays in a house and the house is on fire most of the time, he would get out of the house... He will get out of the house and still relocate to another house located within the same land. When we use our metaphors, we must be clear in our minds. Are we better together?
Are we?
That’s the big question. That’s why we need to restructure. That’s why I said that’s my own slight amendment. The issue of our unity should not be in anybody’s mind that we don’t need ourselves. Which of the federating units can stand alone now? For instance, I was born in Abeokuta, raised in the north; I was a Muslim, I became a Christian afterwards. You think I will ever hold a gun to shoot a Muslim or a Christian? That would be insanity. You think I will ever think evil of any of my Muslim brothers and sisters? I have very many friends among them. We are married from there and they are married from here. Let us apply some wisdom here. If something is wrong, let us locate the root of it and deal with it. Let us not throw away the baby with the bath water. I think that was what General Ibrahim Babangida was counseling.
If we play into the hands of those who are working tirelessly for the disintegration of Nigeria, Nigeria will suffer for it. Our president should never think he’s got that choice. Before that time comes, God will interfere in the affairs of Nigeria. It’s clear in my mind that we are better off as a united nation. A united nation, with each federating unit, or if we decide to go back to regions, with each region being be able to maximize its potentials, the potentials of its people and be able to contribute as well as receive benefits from the entire nation for each according to its ability and use. It is a biblical standard.
Don’t forget, God is the author of nations, nationalities and nationhood. He made mankind from one blood and predetermined the boundaries of their dwelling and the time of their visitation. I believe God is at work in Nigeria and He will help us. We should not be thinking of dividing and shooting ourselves. What’s going on with Boko Haram, MEND, is madness because at the end of the day, the people who are causing the problem are not the ones being shot. They are not the ones being bombed and maimed. Look at the young journalist from Channels TV that was in Kano to carry out his duty and was shot, pointblank, by another person. I wept in my living room when that news broke.
Whoever that person is, that is wickedness. You can’t create life; you have no right to take it. I am not advocating violence in my nation but I am not also for peace in the graveyard. The foundation of peace is justice. You cannot have peace without justice. Finally, how do we resolve the issue of Boko Haram? Because it is like fire in harmattan; it keeps spreading at alarming rate and people are having this impression that if their activities are not checked, and a solution found, it might drive our country to the precipice.
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